Rules Query

[Whereditgo]

Player A hits his tee shot towards a red staked hazard, arriving at the area it is thought the ball would be it is not found either in or out of the hazard. Player A proceeds as though the ball was lost in the hazard, drops a ball within 2 club lengths, hits it and walks up the fairway. 30 or so paces further up the original ball appears sat in the semi-rough.

What's the correct rule/course of action, this was in a Bogey comp if that makes a difference.

 

[Smiffy]

As soon as he's hit the second ball it becomes the ball in play.
Sorry

 

[Imurg]

Agreed

 

[Whereditgo]

As soon as he's hit the second ball it becomes the ball in play.
Sorry

No need for sorry, it wasn't me

That was my take on it too, but kept saying "red staked hazard is different"

 

[Smiffy]

That was my take on it too, but kept saying "red staked hazard is different"

The bloke's a knob

 

[MashieNiblick]

As soon as he's hit the second ball it becomes the ball in play.
Sorry

Almost..

Rule 20-4 - When Ball Dropped or Placed is in Play

"A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed."

It's in play as soon as it's dropped or placed. No need to make a stroke.

 

[Smiffy]

As soon as he's hit the second ball it becomes the ball in play.
Sorry

Almost..

Rule 20-4 - When Ball Dropped or Placed is in Play

"A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed."

It's in play as soon as it's dropped or placed. No need to make a stroke.

I stand corrected.





Knob

 

[MashieNiblick]

As soon as he's hit the second ball it becomes the ball in play.
Sorry

Almost..

Rule 20-4 - When Ball Dropped or Placed is in Play

"A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed."

It's in play as soon as it's dropped or placed. No need to make a stroke.

I stand corrected.





Knob

At last, the ultimate accolade. I now know I am at home here!

 

[Ethan]

Actually, it is much more interesting than that.

To be able to drop a ball (under Rule 26.1 - relief for ball in hazard), the player had to be virtually certain the first ball was in the hazard. But it wasn't, so he had proceeded incorrectly played from the wrong place, rather than doing what he should have done under Rule 27.1 (lost or out of bounds).

In dropping incorrectly, he incurs a further penalty of 2 shots on top of the stroke and distance for the original "lost ball". If considered a serious breach, he is DQ'd. In matchplay, he loses the hole.

See Rule 26.1/3 Ball Played Under Water Hazard Rule: Original Ball Then Found Outside Hazard.

 

[chrisd]

the player had to be virtually certain the first ball was in the hazard. But it wasn't, so he had proceeded incorrectly played from the wrong place,

Not so sure that this interpretation is correct. I agree that they have to be "virtually" certain but maybe they were a 4 ball and were all virtually certain that the ball went in the hazard. The fact that they were wrong doesn't alter their original view, after all the ball could have gone in the hazard and then, out of their view, hit something that propelled it out and back into play. So long as they were all agreed I think that no extra penalties would be added. This would be more important in a medal round than the actual competition this group were playing as in a Bogey comp the drop probably meant that he lost the hole anyway.


Just looked up Decisions on th rules and

As it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the water hazard when the player put the substituted ball into play, that ball was correctly substituted and he may not play the original ball.
If the original ball was found in the water hazard and this discovery affects the reference point for proceeding under Rule 26-1b, resulting in the substituted ball having been dropped in a wrong place, the player must correct the error under Rule 20-6. The player must proceed in accordance with any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 with respect to the correct reference point (see Decisions 20-6/2 and 26-1/16). Otherwise, Rule 20-6 does not apply and the player must continue play with the dropped ball. In either case, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 26-1.
In the unlikely event that the original ball was found outside the water hazard, the player must continue with the dropped ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1).



Chris

 

[bobmac]

Actually, it is much more interesting than that.

To be able to drop a ball (under Rule 26.1 - relief for ball in hazard), the player had to be virtually certain the first ball was in the hazard. But it wasn't, so he had proceeded incorrectly played from the wrong place, rather than doing what he should have done under Rule 27.1 (lost or out of bounds).

This is a grey area.
If the player and his opponent/ playing partners all agree it must be in the water he drops a ball and plays it (26/1) then finds his original ball further up, then what's the ruling?

 

[Ethan]

But it depends how they established "certainty". It is not based on whether everyone agrees, but whether the Committee would accept the argument. Quite often players say they think the ball must have gone in a hazard when they have no good basis for saying so and are wrong.

There is an incentive to do so because you play 3 from down the hole rather than back on the tee.

 

[Ethan]

From the R&A website:

If it is not known that the ball is in the water hazard, in order for the player to proceed under Rule 26-1 there must be almost no doubt that the ball is in the hazard. Otherwise, a ball that cannot be found must be considered lost outside the hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.

Decision 26.1/3

Question: A player believed his original ball had come to rest in a water hazard. He searched for about a minute but did not find his ball. He therefore dropped another ball behind the hazard under Rule 26-1 and played it. He then found his original ball outside the hazard within five minutes of having begun to search for it. What is the ruling?

Answer: When the player dropped and played another ball behind the hazard, it became the ball in play and the original ball was lost.
If it was known or virtually certain that the original ball was in the water hazard, the player was entitled to invoke Rule 26-1. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that the original ball was in the water hazard, the player was required to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1. In playing the ball dropped under Rule 26-1, the player played from a wrong place. In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b).

In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule (Rule 20-7c). If the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in Rule 20-7c.


The question seems to hinge on being able to establish 'virtual certainty' that the ball was in the hazard. If the evidence used for this was not convincing (however wrong it was), the player played from the wrong place. In a medal, this should be a question for the Committee, if you ask me. The playing partners may or may not know the rules or give a damn, or mightn't want to upset their mate.

 

[Whereditgo]

Ok, so say the player goes back to the tee because he assumes the ball to be lost outside the hazard, when does the replacement ball become the ball in play? As soon as it is tee'd up (given that is 'placing' a replacement ball) or as soon as he makes a swing at it? Normally a ball is not in play off the tee until the player makes a swing at it?

 

[Ethan]

Once 5 minutes are up, or he makes a stroke at the ball.

(edited after further exploration)

 

[chrisd]

But it depends how they established "certainty". It is not based on whether everyone agrees, but whether the Committee would accept the argument. Quite often players say they think the ball must have gone in a hazard when they have no good basis for saying so and are wrong.

Frstly Ethan, I dont think in a comp most players would agree that a ball has gone in the hazard unless they were virtually certain that it had, as there are other ways of dealing with the matter without coming to that conclusion. Usually, in my experience, the agreement that it has gone in the hazard is made as the shot is played and not as a result of not finding the ball and, so, coming to that conclusion is not to speed play up .

If everone agrees that the ball is in the hazard the committe would surely never get to rule on the point as the game moves on and I have never known, when I was on my club's golf committee for such a question to be raised, as, after all, who would raise it?


Chris

 

[Ethan]

Chris

Read about 'virtually certain' on the R&A Rules section. I think you will find that the standard required for certainty is higher than the assumption that because all the players agree, it must be so. The Committee should have regard for the conditions around the hole, so if the hazard has a lot of rough or trees around it, it is very difficult to show certainty. if it was a huge lake 100 yards wide with flat open fairway beside it, that is a bit easier.

The fact that this rule is widely abused doesn't mean it should continue to be. Agreement to waive rules is also a penalty!

 

[grumpyjock]

As soon as he's hit the second ball it becomes the ball in play.
Sorry

Almost..

Rule 20-4 - When Ball Dropped or Placed is in Play

"A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed."

It's in play as soon as it's dropped or placed. No need to make a stroke.

I stand corrected.





Knob

At last, the ultimate accolade. I now know I am at home here!

You are now a member of the elite squad, wait until you play a round with him

 

[CrapHacker]

As soon as he's hit the second ball it becomes the ball in play.
Sorry

Almost..

Rule 20-4 - When Ball Dropped or Placed is in Play

"A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed."

It's in play as soon as it's dropped or placed. No need to make a stroke.

I stand corrected.





Knob

At last, the ultimate accolade. I now know I am at home here!

You are now a member of the elite squad, wait until you play a round with him

Jesus, how pissed would you have to be to play around with him

 

[chrisd]

Chris

Read about 'virtually certain' on the R&A Rules section. I think you will find that the standard required for certainty is higher than the assumption that because all the players agree, it must be so. The Committee should have regard for the conditions around the hole, so if the hazard has a lot of rough or trees around it, it is very difficult to show certainty. if it was a huge lake 100 yards wide with flat open fairway beside it, that is a bit easier.

The fact that this rule is widely abused doesn't mean it should continue to be. Agreement to waive rules is also a penalty!

I dont disagree with your overall point Ethan. My point is that tomorrow in my club's comp with about 110 entries most 3 balls will potentially have someone who hits straight at a water hazard and the guys will say " it looked like it went straight in" or something like that and they will all agree. The committee wont know or get involved. The 3 ball will proceed in accordance with the rules and the signed cards will be submitted. Maybe the offender will win, but, no one will be concerned as they will all feel that they did the right thing and, of course, they quite likely did as the ball is very likely to be in the hazard.

The fact is, if challenged, they will all claim to be "virtually certain" that the ball went into the hazard and, in reality, no one can doubt that as they wern't there to see! They havn't agreed to break the rules of golf, indeed they will say that they upheld them.



Chris