Rules query

[viscount17]

Scenario: a ball finishes in an area where the swing will be impeded by an unstaked tree - so no relief from that. to play a shot in a particular direction the players foot will be in the rough area under the tree and in what he claims is a rabbit scrape and he says he gets relief.

Q. Can you get relief in this circumstance?
Q. Can you always get relief if the stance is affected but not the ball?

(I had a rule book with but d'd if I could find it then or now.)

 

[bobmac]

If you cant hit the shot because because of the tree, no free drop.
You have to ask, if the scrape wasn't there, would I hit the shot. In this case the answer is no so no free drop

 

[MashieNiblick]

Hi

As often with the rules it depends.

From the R and A Rules Explorer

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/

Definitions

"An "abnormal ground condition" is any casual water; ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird."

Abnormal ground conditions are covered by Rule 25:

"25-1 - Abnormal Ground Conditions

a. Interference

Interference by an abnormal ground condition occurs when a ball lies in or touches the condition or when the condition interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing. If the player’s ball lies on the putting green, interference also occurs if an abnormal ground condition on the putting green intervenes on his line of putt. Otherwise, intervention on the line of play is not, of itself, interference under this Rule. Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule stating that interference by an abnormal ground condition with a player’s stance is deemed not to be, of itself, interference under this Rule.

b. Relief

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition as follows:

(i) Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the condition and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green."

BUT

"Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) it is clearly unreasonable for him to make a stroke because of interference by anything other than an abnormal ground condition or (b) interference by an abnormal ground condition would occur only through use of an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play."

Rabbits are burrowing animals so if a rabbit scrape interferes with your stance this counts as abnormal ground conditions as is therefore covered by rule 25 but if the interference from the tree would in itself prevent any reasonable stroke then free relief from the rabbit scrape shouldn't be a get out. See decision 25-1b/20 :-

"A player's ball is in an indentation at the base of a tree in such a position that it is clearly unreasonable for him to play a stroke. Despite this, the player claims relief without penalty under Rule 25-1 because his stance for a stroke at the ball in the indentation would be on a burrowing animal hole. Is the player entitled to relief without penalty under Rule 25-1b?

Under the Exception to Rule 25-1b a player may not obtain relief from an abnormal ground condition if it is clearly unreasonable for him to play a stroke due to interference by something other than such a condition. In the circumstances described above, the player's ball is unplayable as it lies in an indentation at the base of a tree. Therefore, the player is not entitled to relief under Rule 25-1 from the burrowing animal hole."

It may also depend on whether the direction of the shot the player intends is reasonable. Decision 25-1b/21 covers this

A player's ball is immediately behind a tree. A cast behind the ball made by a burrowing animal would interfere with the player's backswing for a stroke towards the green, but not with a sideways stroke, which is the only reasonable stroke. If the player says he intends to play towards the green into the tree, may he take relief without penalty under Rule 25-1b?

Under the Exception to Rule 25-1b a player may not obtain relief from an abnormal ground condition if interference from such a condition would only occur through the player using an unnecessarily abnormal direction of play. Therefore, in the circumstances described above, the player is not entitled to relief.

However, say the only shot is sideways and that is a reasonable shot, and the rabbit scrape interferes with your stance for that, you can get a free drop. If after the drop you can then play forwards that's Ok and one of the situations where the rules can work in your favour. Decision 25-1b/22:

" A ball is behind a tree so that a sideways stroke is the only reasonable stroke for the player. However, a cast made by a burrowing animal interferes with the backswing for a sideways stroke. Is the player entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b?

Yes, and if relief gets the player out from behind the tree, he is entitled to play towards the green. "

What I'm not clear about is if you could play sideways or backwards and both are reasonable shots but one involves interference with your stance from a scrape and one doesn't, are you entitled to relief on the basis that you want to take that option rather than the other?

Apologies for long post but you didn't expect a rules query to be simple

PS Doh, just noticed that Bobmac answered you in 3 lines but then he's a pro and I'm a windbag bureaucrat.

 

[viscount17]

I didn't think he should have free relief and he got the hump, been a sight easier if I could have found the rule. He could have played sideways or backward with no interference.

Don't you think that the whole issue of relief could be covered by 'You cannot get relief if a shot is playable without interference in any direction.'

He was also wrong about where you drop when you do take relief.

Mashie, I'll print out your response and give it to him.

 

[bobmac]

Moral of the story.....always carry a rule book in your bag or on your phone

 

[USER1999]

But a lot of the time, you need the decisions book too.

Any one got a bigger golf bag going cheap?

 

[MashieNiblick]

If it was a comp, that might be a situation where you could invoke the 2 ball rule (Rule 3-3) and then get a ruling back at the club house as discussed on another thread recently.

 

[viscount17]

It was a non-qualifying medal (winter tees/greens). we were going to query afterward but he dropped out after nine anyway. (he'd already done his knee in, now it's worse - silly sod, should have rested it, now he may have wrecked his summer golf)

 

[BretbyBlue]

Decisions of Golf 25-1b/22 handles a cast of a burrowing animal interfering with a sideways stroke, when stuck behind a tree. This is in a similar type of Abnormal Ground Condition. The decesion states that the player IS entitled to relief, and is entiteld then to play towards the green.

 

[viscount17]

Decisions of Golf 25-1b/22 handles a cast of a burrowing animal interfering with a sideways stroke, when stuck behind a tree. This is in a similar type of Abnormal Ground Condition. The decesion states that the player IS entitled to relief, and is entiteld then to play towards the green.

This is because it is the only reasonable stroke that can be played in the case described. Not the situation that occurred; he could have played sideways or backward with no interference, so it's 21b/20 that applies.

 

[IHH]

Decisions of Golf 25-1b/22 handles a cast of a burrowing animal interfering with a sideways stroke, when stuck behind a tree. This is in a similar type of Abnormal Ground Condition. The decesion states that the player IS entitled to relief, and is entiteld then to play towards the green.

agree. if the stance is interfered by rabbit scrapes while playing the (reasonable) intended shot. I think he has a free relief.