Rule breach or not?

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sawtooth

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In 4BBB is it illegal to deliberately play up behind your partners ball so that you give him a read on a putt?

I suggest that it must be else it could get rather silly i.e. putting away from the hole to cosy it up behind your partners golf ball.

Not sure what I would do if I saw someone doing that. 🤔
 

duncan mackie

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Yes, but I don't know the reference of hand (anymore).

Simple solution is to concede the putt

Edit - a quick look doesn't provide me with either the general, high level, prohibition nor the more detailed reference that previously existed.
A case of being sure it's still there so I will keep looking!
Seems to have been relegated to a case of serious misconduct - interpretation 1.2a/1 references it specifically.
Which leaves you with conceding the next stroke th3n claiming the hole if the player goes ahead and makes the stroke to assist his partners next stroke. Will continue to look for any other specific reference (but I have speed read almost the entire rule book now!)
 
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sawtooth

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Yes, but I don't know the reference of hand (anymore).

Simple solution is to concede the putt

Edit - a quick look doesn't provide me with either the general, high level, prohibition nor the more detailed reference that previously existed.
A case of being sure it's still there so I will keep looking!
Seems to have been relegated to a case of serious misconduct - interpretation 1.2a/1 references it specifically.
Which leaves you with conceding the next stroke th3n claiming the hole if the player goes ahead and makes the stroke to assist his partners next stroke. Will continue to look for any other specific reference (but I have speed read almost the entire rule book now!)
Thanks I thought that it must be although sometimes I guess very difficult to prove.

What do you mean by simple solution concede the putt?
 

duncan mackie

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If the player is deliberately playing away from his natural direction of play (to get into position to mirror his partners stroke) it will be because he is not going to be the score to count on that hole - so concede his next stroke. 3.2b even permits you to remove his ball after conceding his next stroke. At this point if he now goes ahead and putts to show his partner the line he has provided you your proof.
 
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If the player is deliberately playing away from his natural direction of play (to get into position to mirror his partners stroke) it will be because he is not going to be the score to count on that hole - so concede his next stroke. 3.2b even permits you to remove his ball after conceding his next stroke. At this point if he now goes ahead and putts to show his partner the line he has provided you your proof.
Duncan,

Not disputing this, but I'm struggling to find which rule prevents the player putting out after the concession. The old rules used to say somewhere, something to the effect of " no penalty for putting out after a concession, unless deliberately done to aid another players putt". I'm not seeing/finding the current equivalent? Can you point me in right direction?
 

duncan mackie

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Duncan,

Not disputing this, but I'm struggling to find which rule prevents the player putting out after the concession. The old rules used to say somewhere, something to the effect of " no penalty for putting out after a concession, unless deliberately done to aid another players putt". I'm not seeing/finding the current equivalent? Can you point me in right direction?
No - as posted I can't find specific references in the new rules to match the 2 in the previous ones (a general and the specific you reference).
But, it's definitely the case that one of the tenants of the new ones is that things are stated once to be applied many times - and the interpretation I posted above would clearly cover such an act; the continuation after concession simply covering off any question of whether it was deliberate and fell into this area.
I've not given up finding another reference somewhere either - but I'm happy that one covers it.
 

williamalex1

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Duncan,

Not disputing this, but I'm struggling to find which rule prevents the player putting out after the concession. The old rules used to say somewhere, something to the effect of " no penalty for putting out after a concession, unless deliberately done to aid another players putt". I'm not seeing/finding the current equivalent? Can you point me in right direction?
Try rule 23-6
 
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Cant see that 10-2b would apply. After deliberately playing it into "position", Player A would be standing over & playing his own ball and so be perfectly entitled to be there. Then player B would gain information about his potential line/break etc when Player A makes his putt.

The solution offered was to concede Player A's putt so that the putt is not made.

My query was that if the putt is indeed conceded, what rules now prevent player A playing the stroke anyway?

Having delved around, I've found the reference under the old rules was Decision 2-4/6. (If playing a conceded putt is of assistance to a partner, the partner is disqualified from the hole). Which relies on old rule 1-4 - ie the principle of "equity". Presumably the current rules rely on the same principle - which is set out (using new words) in 20.3. Question is, does the principle of the old decision 2-4/6 in any way carry over into the new rules. I'm assuming it's this bit that Duncan has not yet pinned down?
 

duncan mackie

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Brilliant - that's the one! 🤗

However, on 10-2b I'm not sure that helps this particular issue, and it does require the partner to be daft enough to observe from that position!
Under that rule it would be the player putting who gets penalised (general penalty) rather than the player standing behind observing the line (who is the one gaining the advantage) although 23.8a (2) probably comes into play there - so the side would be penalised loss of hole.

So in conclusion we have 23.6 for matchplay following a concession to protect the interests of the opponents - (edit) conceded score only to count on the hole.

In a strokeplay event we are left with the explicitly worded gross misconduct which would require reference to the committee and judgement (unless the player is daft enough to bring 10.2b into it.
 
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Twire

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Brilliant - that's the one! 🤗



So in conclusion we have 23.6 for matchplay following a concession to protect the interests of the opponents - simple loss of hole if proceeded with.

Is it loss of hole? Looking at exception 2 I'm not sure now!


Partners may play in the order the side considers best.
This means that when it is a player’s turn to play under Rule 6.4a (match play) or 6.4b (stroke play), either the player or his or her partner may play next.
Exception – Continuing Play of Hole After Stroke Conceded in Match Play:
  • A player must not continue play of a hole after the player’s next stroke has been conceded if this would help his or her partner.
  • If the player does so, his or her score for the hole stands without penalty, butthe partner's score for the hole cannot count for the side.
 

duncan mackie

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Is it loss of hole? Looking at exception 2 I'm not sure now!


Partners may play in the order the side considers best.
This means that when it is a player’s turn to play under Rule 6.4a (match play) or 6.4b (stroke play), either the player or his or her partner may play next.
Exception – Continuing Play of Hole After Stroke Conceded in Match Play:
  • A player must not continue play of a hole after the player’s next stroke has been conceded if this would help his or her partner.
  • If the player does so, his or her score for the hole stands without penalty, butthe partner's score for the hole cannot count for the side.
Absolutely correct; I got a little ahead in the wider representation!

The player whose stroke was conceded has a score that stands - and it's not impossible that his score may provide a half (although if that score provides a half many will have some serious soul searching about conceding it - even if the other putt is for a better score...)

So more accurately the sides score becomes limited to the already conceded score.
 

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Great example of how to manage it was in RC @ medinah.Westwood and Colsearts V Tiger &Stricker 4bbb
.Colsearts was on in 2 and putting for birdie and on a hot streak (thankfully for westy!!) While SS had found water,he played up anyway and when on green was looking to give tiger a line on his putt but westy was all over it, picked up SS's ball before he could putt and conceded it, tossing him the ball with a knowing smile.Bith Tiger and SS smiled knowing Westy knew his stuff, tiger missed,NC didn't....a tiny moment in the miracle but a great example of knowing what to do when
 

duncan mackie

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Great example of how to manage it was in RC @ medinah.Westwood and Colsearts V Tiger &Stricker 4bbb
.Colsearts was on in 2 and putting for birdie and on a hot streak (thankfully for westy!!) While SS had found water,he played up anyway and when on green was looking to give tiger a line on his putt but westy was all over it, picked up SS's ball before he could putt and conceded it, tossing him the ball with a knowing smile.Bith Tiger and SS smiled knowing Westy knew his stuff, tiger missed,NC didn't....a tiny moment in the miracle but a great example of knowing what to do when
I find it more common in club matches to get a partner who insists on putting out when it's his turn to play - and giving the opponents a great read on their putt; even when they definitively aren't going to figure in the result of the hole 😩
 
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