Replace handicap with just the category?

[jp5]

Fantastic idea, I was thinking along similar lines after reading the 57 & 59 from a 20 handicapper thread.

This would increase participation and I think clubs would be better for it.

 

[Simbo]

Don't see anything wrong with the current system tbh. No matter what system is in place people will find a way to beat it if they really want to.
The top 5% in each division would be winning a lot of the time, especially in the cat 1 and 2 sections, the difference between a 5 h/cap and a scratch player is a country mile!!

How would you work the club tournaments?? Like knockout competitions?? Play only knockouts comps for your own division??? Considering a very low percentage of golfers play in cat 1, if they even had enough to run a tournament, it would be the same guys playing each other all the time.

I understand the reasoning behind the system you propose and realise that high handicappers winning the money a lot but can't see it working.

Our club offer first,second and third for each category so really each category is competing against itself but retaining handicaps, we also offer best scratch and overall best nett scores

 

[HomerJSimpson]

My club has divisions already for the monthly/weekly medals and stablefords so I think the system is already in place. At the end of the day it is all about my own performance and my own handicap and good scores will get the results and bad ones won't. If I shoot well and win its a bonus but it isn't the winning that drives me on

 

[Ian_S]

Sometimes handicap can be all in the head

Certainly feels that some days. I know if I have a good few holes you start thinking 'if I play like this any longer, they'll call me a bandit'.

It's funny. A 4 capper shoots 8 below handicap, his best round ever and its 'what a brilliant round' - a 20 capper can shoot 8 under, the best round he's ever played, and it's 'get your sombrero on son'.

Sometimes I wonder whether that is why practice rounds are that much easier. It's not just 'card in hand' issues, it's not wanting to get that label just for playing well.

 

[Backsticks]

I think we fundamentally agree that the h'cap system ... is far from a level playing field as you prove with your point about it being harder to win the lower you get.

Is incorrect I think :

http://www.congu.com/Myth 1.pdf

 

[Backsticks]

The OP proposal makes no sense to me. If the handicap system is imperfect (as it indeed is), then does the proposal not make it even more inequitable ?
While the current system is prone to handicap manipulation (either building, or vanity handicapping low), this is by a minority of players, and to the extent of a stroke or two. A stroke or two is annoying to the honest player, but the proposal suggests building in a potential 'incorrectness' of up to 6 strokes. An 11 handicapper player level against a 17 handicapper, or a 6 against a 10 ? How does that improve the situation ???

It would be open to even greater abuse - a true 9 handicapper building a handicap to 11 so effectively a 9 playing against 17s without giving any shots. And ruin handicap golf completely.

This is the reason that Intermediate, junior, senior etc scratch cups are a minority interest - they are fundamentally unfair. Being neither fish nor fowl : handicapped nor not handicapped, but a warped and meaningless hybrid.

 

[Spark.]

My club has division winners awell, like others have said. This idea will never replace the congu system, it would be more a way of restructuring comps.

 

[JustOne]

My club has division winners awell, like others have said. This idea will never replace the congu system, it would be more a way of restructuring comps.

I agree. I like the idea of divisions for comps, a lot of clubs already do that (and do it well).

I would like to see h/caps be somekind of average of your last 15 rounds but based somehow around your LOWEST score of those 15, OR maybe something like your lowest score of your last 15 comp rounds +2 shots.

 

[chrisd]

The OP proposal makes no sense to me. If the handicap system is imperfect (as it indeed is), then does the proposal not make it even more inequitable ?
While the current system is prone to handicap manipulation (either building, or vanity handicapping low), this is by a minority of players, and to the extent of a stroke or two. A stroke or two is annoying to the honest player, but the proposal suggests building in a potential 'incorrectness' of up to 6 strokes. An 11 handicapper player level against a 17 handicapper, or a 6 against a 10 ? How does that improve the situation ???

It would be open to even greater abuse - a true 9 handicapper building a handicap to 11 so effectively a 9 playing against 17s without giving any shots. And ruin handicap golf completely.

This is the reason that Intermediate, junior, senior etc scratch cups are a minority interest - they are fundamentally unfair. Being neither fish nor fowl : handicapped nor not handicapped, but a warped and meaningless hybrid.

Now that says it all for me!

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Is incorrect I think :

http://www.congu.com/Myth 1.pdf

Ah the myths again.

It is more likely that a high h'capper is going to shoot 6 or 7 under h'cap than a low Cat 2 or Cat 1 player. This might be because high guys are improving quickly or other reasons but it is more likely. There are also more high h'cappers in comps. It there for stands to reason that winning as a lower h'cap is going to be harder.

If you gave me the option of putting money on a 5 or 6 h'capper at our club shooting under par (Par 70 at our place) or a 19/20 h'capper shooting 83 or 84, I know where my money would be.

 

[woody69]

The OP proposal makes no sense to me. If the handicap system is imperfect (as it indeed is), then does the proposal not make it even more inequitable ?
While the current system is prone to handicap manipulation (either building, or vanity handicapping low), this is by a minority of players, and to the extent of a stroke or two. A stroke or two is annoying to the honest player, but the proposal suggests building in a potential 'incorrectness' of up to 6 strokes. An 11 handicapper player level against a 17 handicapper, or a 6 against a 10 ? How does that improve the situation ???

It would be open to even greater abuse - a true 9 handicapper building a handicap to 11 so effectively a 9 playing against 17s without giving any shots. And ruin handicap golf completely.

This is the reason that Intermediate, junior, senior etc scratch cups are a minority interest - they are fundamentally unfair. Being neither fish nor fowl : handicapped nor not handicapped, but a warped and meaningless hybrid.

They wouldn't be building a handicap to anything though. The "handicap" wouldn't exist, they would just be a div 3 player. If they continued to lose they would eventually drop down a division, but it would be quicker if they won divisions, or at least topped them every say 3 months they were promoted to the next division, but every 6 months some players were relegated down.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Bonkers thread - handicap system is NEVER going to go away and many if not most competitions results are divided into divisions according to category in any case. I'm not getting what the problem is - at all. The better golfers win 'scratch' competitions - golfers playing better than their general day-to-day ability win handicap comps.

 

[Spark.]

The reason high handicappers are high handicappers isnt the fact they go round in double bogeys, Its inconsistancy. I usually go round in about mid 90s but thats due to my long game, either 3 off the tee or playing out roughs. For the other say 14 holes I could easily go round in pars and bogeys. There will be days I could go and drive well and go round mid 80s or less. The only way I can see to make it fairer is to say after 16 strokes awarded is to only award an extra point for every two handicaps. So a 16 handicap would get 16 strokes, 17 and 18 would get 17. 19 and 20 would get 18 and so on.

 

[Geoff_Baker]

The only truly fair option would be to do away with handicaps altogether and everyone plays off scratch - then the best golf on the day wins. People who put most effort into their games would likely reap their reward.

I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread about 'bandits' - I would suggest they are a very small minority but having played in about 30/40 opens a year for about 15 years I would suggest that they do exist. This is the main reason why I have stopped playing in many handicap opens - too many occasions where 17 handicappers were playing to 3 (yes that was 50 points in a stableford).

However golf is one of the few sports where handicapping can work and probably is one of the reasons why golf is attractive to many of the people who play.

Unfortunately any handicapping system is open to manipulation by the unscrupulous and can never be perfect - I would say the current system is acceptable 99% of the time.

One area where it could be improved I think would be the introduction of a 'slope' system to allow for adjustments in handicap based on the relative difficulty of a players home course and the course being played. A 9 handicapper from a championship quality links is likely to be a lot better than a 9 handicapper from a 5500 yard course.

I think the other point to remember with handicaps is that a handicap is meant to be an indication of your best ability not your average which most people seem to think is the case.

 

[FairwayDodger]

For me, the best thing about handicaps is that they provide an objective way for us to monitor how "good" we are at the game and to see how we are progressing. Trying to reduce my own handicap is what keeps me working at my game. Achieving a cut is what gives me satisfaction rather than "beating" someone who in reality took fewer shots to go round than me.

I can see how high handicappers would enjoy being able to "compete" with a low handicapper by virtue of the handicap system, but not the other way round. I've had to give over 20 shots in a match and it's not even remotely enjoyable because you need your opponent to play badly to have any chance and I just don't enjoy playing with that sort of mindset.

The scheme in the OP, while attractive in some regards, often wouldn't work in practice. We only have a small number of cat 2 players, for example, and if one of us managed to get down to cat 1 she'd have nobody to play with....

 

[Simbo]

The scheme in the OP, while attractive in some regards, often wouldn't work in practice. We only have a small number of cat 2 players, for example, and if one of us managed to get down to cat 1 she'd have nobody to play with....[/QUOTE]

That's what I more or less said in my post, while the suggested system would probably work for players in the cat 3 or 4 divisions, cat 1 and to an extent cat 2 would be a different story. Out of all the members at your club how many play in cat 1??? 10% if that, would be the same "20" folk playing each other every week, and more than likely the "scratch" guys winning every week. As oppose to the hundred or whatever in cat 3.

Doesn't snooker have a handicap system??? I know very little about it but I've heard guys at work that play talking about it??

 

[jp5]

The scheme in the OP, while attractive in some regards, often wouldn't work in practice. We only have a small number of cat 2 players, for example, and if one of us managed to get down to cat 1 she'd have nobody to play with....

That's what I more or less said in my post, while the suggested system would probably work for players in the cat 3 or 4 divisions, cat 1 and to an extent cat 2 would be a different story. Out of all the members at your club how many play in cat 1??? 10% if that, would be the same "20" folk playing each other every week, and more than likely the "scratch" guys winning every week. As oppose to the hundred or whatever in cat 3.

Doesn't snooker have a handicap system??? I know very little about it but I've heard guys at work that play talking about it??[/QUOTE]

Not really, you could play with people from any division - as you play with people of any handicap now - but you'd only compete against those in the division. And if the divisions had a sufficiently small spread of handicap, I think it would be quite competitive.

 

[Simbo]

doesn't matter who you play round with, you will still only be competing against other catahory 1 players when the results are in,
which will still add up to a very low percentage of players, probably no more than 10% of your total membership! And the difference between scratch and 5 is massive therefor its very likely that the scratch guys will win every week.