Rangers

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Most folk in England are unaware that there is two leagues in Scotland. The SPL and the other wee teams three divisions.
The SFA are desperately trying to enforce a one league structure by the start of the season.

Livingstone were in the wee teams league Div1 when they went bust and were sent down to Div 3 by the wee leagues administration.
Gretna just went bust and dissapeared.
 
If newco Rangers get voted back into to the SPL it'll be a shameful day for Scottish Football where money comes before honesty and integrity.

The chairman of my club (St Mirren) is hopefully about to complete the sale of the club to a community/fan group. That group's views are crystal clear as far as I can tell: they want oldco Rangers to face justice for their crimes and if that means a drop in St Mirrens's revenue so be it. The club will have to cut their cloth accordingly. If the chairman votes for SPL readmittance it would jeopardise the sale of his club.
 
SPHELL will always put money first. Dundee United are on a sticky financial wicket, Aberdeen are being kept afloat by Stewart Milne guaranteeing the debt at the bank. Kilmarnock are afloat only due to their profit making hotel and the diet Huns, the ones in Edinburgh without the bus fayre will implode eventually.

Scottish football is down the tubes, with or without Rangers and Celtic for that matter.
 
There are some very successful clubs in Europe that are owned by there fans.
Would it not be great to see that in Scotland, even if the quality was of a lower standard at least we could take a bit of pride in not being mega rich mens playthings.
Some of my Rangers friends I believe would welcome a move to Div 3.
A clean start with a chance to build a decent club.
There have been glory hunters who have supported Rangers for all the wrong reasons. You will not see them at Arbroath or Annan, they will have no stomach for a genuine fightback.
 
Liverbirdie said:
Dodge, how mant titles and cups behind Rangers are you, before the title stripping. May you then overhaul their totals?
Click to expand...

A little discussed fact is that Celtic used EBT's once, to pay the wee lad Juninho.So that season if Celtic and Rangers were using ebt's, the actual winners of the league that season was my team, Hibs!...let me have my moment, it's about the only way we'll see silverware @ ER.
 
Adi2Dassler said:
A little discussed fact is that Celtic used EBT's once, to pay the wee lad Juninho.So that season if Celtic and Rangers were using ebt's, the actual winners of the league that season was my team, Hibs!...let me have my moment, it's about the only way we'll see silverware @ ER.
Click to expand...

But Celtic paid the tax that was due on it.......
 
Adi2Dassler said:
A little discussed fact is that Celtic used EBT's once, to pay the wee lad Juninho.So that season if Celtic and Rangers were using ebt's, the actual winners of the league that season was my team, Hibs!...let me have my moment, it's about the only way we'll see silverware @ ER.
Click to expand...

What are EBT's?
 
Adi2Dassler said:
you're spoiling my wee fantasy with cold hard facts, please stop it!
Click to expand...


I AM STILL HERE DODGER :D

Cold hard facts that are completely wrong :D

The tax investigation and football investigation are approaching Rangers’s EBT from completely different angles

If Celtic have paid the tax back that would only clear them from an HMRC investigation.

Juninho’s contract would have to state how much he was being paid for footballing activities which should include his weekly salary and the money he was drawing from an EBT to be clear from any Football authority investigation

Also Celtic may still win league that year anyway as only games that Juninho played could be voided anyway and Celtic were a lot of point clear of Hibs. Note only games that Celtic gained points in that Juninho played would make a difference to their total.


I have followed this thread with interest and have had a good laugh the amount of wrong information that has been on here, some of which I will attempt to put right. Some may see my rantings as a view from a bitter bluenose but I shall leave it up to you to decide


“Systematic Cheating for 20 Years”

The period under investigation is from 2000 – 2010 (only!!) for use of EBT’s from a football and Tax investigation. Rangers paid £39 million into an EBT fund which is the amount HMRC are chasing plus they want penalties and interest added.

EBT’s are not illegal and have been widely used by many companies as a form of Tax avoidance which should not be confused with Tax evasion. An EBT allows an employee (mostly used at director level) to draw a sum of money as a loan. The interest payable is 8% (I think) which is much less than tax and NI at around 25% approx depending on your tax bracket. Therefore drawing from an EBT would save an employee a lot on tax and NI.

EBT’s have been widely used to pay bonuses but HMRC closed this loophole at around 2010.

So why are Rangers being pursued by HMRC?

A yearly bonus from an EBT would not have caused too much fuss from HMRC but their argument is that the amount of times staff were drawing from Rangers EBT makes it a form of tax evasion rather than avoidance. The company that advised RFC on EBT’s are now defunct. An ex employee has stated though that RFC went way beyond what they were advised. The info I know on the ex –chairman leads me to believe that he thought he was untouchable and could do what he wishes in the business world. I certainly would not disagree with the thoughts that RFC went too far.

It has been reported that up to 8 clubs in the EPL have also being using EBT’s but Rangers has been seen as the test case for HMRC as their scheme has had the most funds been drawn. Basically if Rangers are found not guilty the HMRC have almost no chance of winning any other cases. As each player’s case is unique it becomes a long drawn out investigation and this is probably why a verdict has not come back yet. In my opinion Rangers will certainly be found guilty in some cases, For instance it has been reported that Sasa Papac salary dropped from one season to the next but the funds he drew from the EBT went up. Quite clearly tax evasion in my opinion. How much Rangers will be find is open to debate.

Why now Football Authority Investigation?
This is where the “dual contracts” have been brought up. From the recent BBC investigation no dual contracts have been found. What has been uncovered is letters from RFC to players saying they can apply from funds from an EBT. The letters do not state that money would be definitely be paid out (do wonder if anybody was refused though) and therefore in my opinion cannot be contractual, so therefore are Rangers innocent?
Not quite. SFA rules state that a player must only have one contract BUT the contract must state how much the players are being paid for footballing activities. I think Rangers fall down here as all players registered paperwork at the SFA does not state anything about payments from an EBT. For Rangers to be clear then the money paid to players from the EBT can’t be for football. If the monies are not for football then what the hell are they for????

My only complaint is why have the football authorities taken so long. RFC accounts supplied to the SPL (supplied every year for licence approval) have included funds paid into the EBT every year. The press even carried reports on the structure of the EBT in 2000 after the funding for the scheme was queried at an AGM in 2000 after it appeared in the accounts for the first time. I was at this AGM and the EBT scheme sounded good but I had I known about player registration contracts etc back then I would certainly have stood up at the time. Maybe Campbell Ogilvie (Now SFA Secretary, previously RFC Sec.) should have!!!! Although he was no longer working on player registrations on a day to day basis he surely knew the ins and outs and as he was using the EBT fund it certainly should have set alarm bells ringing


The Whyte Year.

It has been said that Craig Whyte deliberately stopped paying NI and VAT to fund transfers for new players. Us some of the fees have been undisclosed It is very difficult to establish if this is true or not.

Certainly with failing to make the CL group stages it makes this scenario far more probable.

What can be said though is that Whyte stopped paying VAT and NI from the day he arrived, well before the possibility of cash shortages with failure to reach the CL groups. Coupled with the fact that when he arrived a large bundle of cash from Season Tickets renewals was on the doorstep so there should have been no shortfall of cash to pay HMRC at this point

Also it has been stated by the previous regime that RFC would make a yearly loss of £10 million without CL football.

However Whyte had got £27 million from Ticketus of which he paid £18million to Lloyds to buy the club and pay off the overdraft This would leave him with a £9 million surplus coupled with the transfer of Jelavic, sell on fee for Adam moving to Liverpool and the sale of Arsenal shares should really mean that he could realistically been thereabouts on having enough cash to see him through the season. It must also be noted that the cash surplus from Ticketus, first instalment of sale of jelevic and money for Arsenal shares has NEVER gone into an RFC account at any time
The missing monies have been paid into Whyte’s lawyers account (Collier Bristow) but from there they go missing. Rangers’ administrators have taken court Action against Whyte to recover monies

My take on the Wyte year?
Quite why anybody would buy the club and take on the potential bill to HMRC I have no idea?

It was possible the club would be hit by a £50 million bill and be forced into admin as they would not be able to pay it. My thinking is that Whyte thought it may as well be £60 million.

Also one good thing to come out of liquidation is that a full investigation can be done on the RFC takeover by Whyte




Comparisons with Livi and Gretna

Lots of statements about how these clubs were treated differently but in truth the cases are different.

Livingston was in the SPL the first time they went into admin in 2004 and faced no penalty from the SPL. There were no admin rules at the time so there can be no complaints from me.

The second time they went into admin in 2009 they were not even in the SPL. They entered liquidation which was stopped a day later when the SFA, administrators and potential investors reached agreement to keep club afloat.

By this time they had missed a bond payment from to SFL and other breaches of insolvency rules resulted in the SFL of demoting them to the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] division. This I would agree was very tough as a group had been trying to buy the club, with help from administrators, for months.


Gretna who was already bottom of the league went into Admin and was docked 10 points by the SPL. The SPL then funded them to the end of season by advancing TV money (SPL should maybe have funded clubs out of pocket from RFC by advancing RFC share to them). Gretna were then relegated to the SFL as they finished bottom of SPL
No buyer for Gretna was found and they were wound up by liquidators as no CVA was possible.





May get round to writing more regarding SFA punishment, why I think we should go to the SFL, 8-4 vote myths and TV money if anybody is interested


Sorry from a Rangers shareholder and fan


FairwayDodger, me and you need to arrange a game sometime and get away from all this :lol:
 
StuartD said:
I AM STILL HERE DODGER :D

Cold hard facts that are completely wrong :D

The tax investigation and football investigation are approaching Rangers’s EBT from completely different angles

If Celtic have paid the tax back that would only clear them from an HMRC investigation.

Juninho’s contract would have to state how much he was being paid for footballing activities which should include his weekly salary and the money he was drawing from an EBT to be clear from any Football authority investigation

Also Celtic may still win league that year anyway as only games that Juninho played could be voided anyway and Celtic were a lot of point clear of Hibs. Note only games that Celtic gained points in that Juninho played would make a difference to their total.


I have followed this thread with interest and have had a good laugh the amount of wrong information that has been on here, some of which I will attempt to put right. Some may see my rantings as a view from a bitter bluenose but I shall leave it up to you to decide


“Systematic Cheating for 20 Years”

The period under investigation is from 2000 – 2010 (only!!) for use of EBT’s from a football and Tax investigation. Rangers paid £39 million into an EBT fund which is the amount HMRC are chasing plus they want penalties and interest added.

EBT’s are not illegal and have been widely used by many companies as a form of Tax avoidance which should not be confused with Tax evasion. An EBT allows an employee (mostly used at director level) to draw a sum of money as a loan. The interest payable is 8% (I think) which is much less than tax and NI at around 25% approx depending on your tax bracket. Therefore drawing from an EBT would save an employee a lot on tax and NI.

EBT’s have been widely used to pay bonuses but HMRC closed this loophole at around 2010.

So why are Rangers being pursued by HMRC?

A yearly bonus from an EBT would not have caused too much fuss from HMRC but their argument is that the amount of times staff were drawing from Rangers EBT makes it a form of tax evasion rather than avoidance. The company that advised RFC on EBT’s are now defunct. An ex employee has stated though that RFC went way beyond what they were advised. The info I know on the ex –chairman leads me to believe that he thought he was untouchable and could do what he wishes in the business world. I certainly would not disagree with the thoughts that RFC went too far.

It has been reported that up to 8 clubs in the EPL have also being using EBT’s but Rangers has been seen as the test case for HMRC as their scheme has had the most funds been drawn. Basically if Rangers are found not guilty the HMRC have almost no chance of winning any other cases. As each player’s case is unique it becomes a long drawn out investigation and this is probably why a verdict has not come back yet. In my opinion Rangers will certainly be found guilty in some cases, For instance it has been reported that Sasa Papac salary dropped from one season to the next but the funds he drew from the EBT went up. Quite clearly tax evasion in my opinion. How much Rangers will be find is open to debate.

Why now Football Authority Investigation?
This is where the “dual contracts” have been brought up. From the recent BBC investigation no dual contracts have been found. What has been uncovered is letters from RFC to players saying they can apply from funds from an EBT. The letters do not state that money would be definitely be paid out (do wonder if anybody was refused though) and therefore in my opinion cannot be contractual, so therefore are Rangers innocent?
Not quite. SFA rules state that a player must only have one contract BUT the contract must state how much the players are being paid for footballing activities. I think Rangers fall down here as all players registered paperwork at the SFA does not state anything about payments from an EBT. For Rangers to be clear then the money paid to players from the EBT can’t be for football. If the monies are not for football then what the hell are they for????

My only complaint is why have the football authorities taken so long. RFC accounts supplied to the SPL (supplied every year for licence approval) have included funds paid into the EBT every year. The press even carried reports on the structure of the EBT in 2000 after the funding for the scheme was queried at an AGM in 2000 after it appeared in the accounts for the first time. I was at this AGM and the EBT scheme sounded good but I had I known about player registration contracts etc back then I would certainly have stood up at the time. Maybe Campbell Ogilvie (Now SFA Secretary, previously RFC Sec.) should have!!!! Although he was no longer working on player registrations on a day to day basis he surely knew the ins and outs and as he was using the EBT fund it certainly should have set alarm bells ringing


The Whyte Year.

It has been said that Craig Whyte deliberately stopped paying NI and VAT to fund transfers for new players. Us some of the fees have been undisclosed It is very difficult to establish if this is true or not.

Certainly with failing to make the CL group stages it makes this scenario far more probable.

What can be said though is that Whyte stopped paying VAT and NI from the day he arrived, well before the possibility of cash shortages with failure to reach the CL groups. Coupled with the fact that when he arrived a large bundle of cash from Season Tickets renewals was on the doorstep so there should have been no shortfall of cash to pay HMRC at this point

Also it has been stated by the previous regime that RFC would make a yearly loss of £10 million without CL football.

However Whyte had got £27 million from Ticketus of which he paid £18million to Lloyds to buy the club and pay off the overdraft This would leave him with a £9 million surplus coupled with the transfer of Jelavic, sell on fee for Adam moving to Liverpool and the sale of Arsenal shares should really mean that he could realistically been thereabouts on having enough cash to see him through the season. It must also be noted that the cash surplus from Ticketus, first instalment of sale of jelevic and money for Arsenal shares has NEVER gone into an RFC account at any time
The missing monies have been paid into Whyte’s lawyers account (Collier Bristow) but from there they go missing. Rangers’ administrators have taken court Action against Whyte to recover monies

My take on the Wyte year?
Quite why anybody would buy the club and take on the potential bill to HMRC I have no idea?

It was possible the club would be hit by a £50 million bill and be forced into admin as they would not be able to pay it. My thinking is that Whyte thought it may as well be £60 million.

Also one good thing to come out of liquidation is that a full investigation can be done on the RFC takeover by Whyte




Comparisons with Livi and Gretna

Lots of statements about how these clubs were treated differently but in truth the cases are different.

Livingston was in the SPL the first time they went into admin in 2004 and faced no penalty from the SPL. There were no admin rules at the time so there can be no complaints from me.

The second time they went into admin in 2009 they were not even in the SPL. They entered liquidation which was stopped a day later when the SFA, administrators and potential investors reached agreement to keep club afloat.

By this time they had missed a bond payment from to SFL and other breaches of insolvency rules resulted in the SFL of demoting them to the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] division. This I would agree was very tough as a group had been trying to buy the club, with help from administrators, for months.


Gretna who was already bottom of the league went into Admin and was docked 10 points by the SPL. The SPL then funded them to the end of season by advancing TV money (SPL should maybe have funded clubs out of pocket from RFC by advancing RFC share to them). Gretna were then relegated to the SFL as they finished bottom of SPL
No buyer for Gretna was found and they were wound up by liquidators as no CVA was possible.





May get round to writing more regarding SFA punishment, why I think we should go to the SFL, 8-4 vote myths and TV money if anybody is interested


Sorry from a Rangers shareholder and fan


FairwayDodger, me and you need to arrange a game sometime and get away from all this :lol:
Click to expand...

Brilliant,I knew a bit of baiting would have you back!

Tell me what punishment you have had Stuart?10 points when your clown of a gaffer had lost you the league anyway?You have not had a punishment.....yet.

I am all ears.Good to see you admitting the fact your club has been cheating though regardless of the years involved.

One last question,have you arranged a march against the Magic Cardigan yet.....it must surely be in the offing.
Oh and another couple,where do you think you will be playing next season? Genuine question....and do you agree that more is set to come out about the dodgy going on?
 
Last edited:
Good post Stuart, very well written.

The players as well having been paid for footballing work may have have been using their income from commercial activities in their native country as a way of reducing their tax liability in this country. Which maybe explains why the likes of de Boer, Klos etc who were generally named as beneficiaries of the ebt. But how could you explain that for Barry Ferguson.

This teddy bears golf outing is growing all the time !!
 
Dodger said:
Brilliant,I knew a bit of baiting would have you back!

Tell me what punishment you have had Stuart?10 points when your clown of a gaffer had lost you the league anyway?You have not had a punishment.....yet.

I am all ears.Good to see you admitting the fact your club has been cheating though regardless of the years involved.

One last question,have you arranged a march against the Magic Cardigan yet.....it must surely be in the offing.
Oh and another couple,where do you think you will be playing next season? Genuine question....and do you agree that more is set to come out about the dodgy going on?
Click to expand...

I think most of the Rangers fans now agree on the wrongdoings of previous management of the club, but no one had any clue of what was happening. One of my mates questioned in the early years, how much money has Murray actually put in from his own pocket. Recent investigations note that it was almost entirely funded through his bank !!! Always made out HE was doing it !

Personally I am now of the opinion we should go to division 3, if accepted, rebuild from a solid base and work our way back through the leagues,I am sure more of our fans are also thinking this way.
 
Last edited:
I picked up on a tweet by the Ch4 journo earlier who's saying he has it on good authority things are to explode very soon....I also saw a reply alleging 2 prominent Ref's are about to be exposed as being paid by Rangers.:rofl:

Now,really,I do not believe the latter will happen but could you imaging how funny that would be!!

It is becoming hard to keep up with and my opinion on what the end outcome will be are changing with every turn and I now think that possibly the Newco will end up in admin too.:confused:

I also cannot understand why any of the press have asked any questions re Souness's £30k he got long after he left the club but hey that's the spineless media for you.

One thing is for sure is here's a picture of the squad for next season.

RangersSquad.jpg
 
Dodger said:
I picked up on a tweet by the Ch4 journo earlier who's saying he has it on good authority things are to explode very soon....I also saw a reply alleging 2 prominent Ref's are about to be exposed as being paid by Rangers.:rofl:

Now,really,I do not believe the latter will happen but could you imaging how funny that would be!!

It is becoming hard to keep up with and my opinion on what the end outcome will be are changing with every turn and I now think that possibly the Newco will end up in admin too.:confused:

I also cannot understand why any of the press have asked any questions re Souness's £30k he got long after he left the club but hey that's the spineless media for you.

One thing is for sure is here's a picture of the squad for next season.

RangersSquad.jpg
Click to expand...




Do you attend Church Guild coffee mornings by chance as I'm sure you'd fit right in!!!


:rofl:
 
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