Raising the pension age

[Tashyboy]

Not read all this thread counting tiddies on the beach. But the hypocrisy of government and pensions is something else. They have robbed my pension of Billions. Not just that. The PPF pension protection fund is a safety net for companies not to pay into pension funds. Until The day comes that businesses/ individuals are held accountable for pensions, which means prison sentences if they fail. Then yours and my Pensions will Always be secondary. This re the robbing of pensions and governments cack handed approach of pensions has gone on since maxwell.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Not read all this thread counting tiddies on the beach. But the hypocrisy of government and pensions is something else. They have robbed my pension of Billions. Not just that. The PPF pension protection fund is a safety net for companies not to pay into pension funds. Until The day comes that businesses/ individuals are held accountable for pensions, which means prison sentences if they fail. Then yours and my Pensions will Always be secondary. This re the robbing of pensions and governments cack handed approach of pensions has gone on since maxwell.

I appreciate a golf based forum is not where I would necessarily expect to find informed opinion on pensions and the legislation surrounding them but this emotional outburst represents a new low.

For a start you clearly have no understanding of the role of the PPF and its operation.

This is typical as the public generally take no interest in pension provision until it is too late and then expect it all to be put right for them.

If more attention was paid then there might be a better understanding on the part of the public of the difficulties faced by employers in both the public and private sectors in trying to meet what may often be unrealistic expectations of their workforce.

Trades Unions have also been culpable in overlooking these problems whilst focusing almost solely on short term issues.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

There is a leader in the Times today, justifying the think tanks statements.
A flawed reasoning in my view, it fails to mention ( lest it has to accept) an obvious contrary argument.
One ,which I can personally relate to, is the difference in physical strength and endurance and health, there is between the ages of 65 and 75, that there is to the normal homo sapien, unless their life until then has been a relative cosseted one.
The decline in that ten years is exponential. I read that it is a fact that at the age of 70. a man will have lost 30% of his strength, at least. That's without the health decline likely to happen as well.
Those of you in your early 60s hitting a nine iron to 140-150 yards will find out when you get to middle 70s 😀
You can bet that IDS et al, and the Times journalists won't be working at 75.
Oh, they may be sitting on an occasional board meeting, or writing a sketch or two, which to them is "work",; but 8 hours graft on site, in a shop, etc, possibly on shift- No way.!

 

[Tashyboy]

I appreciate a golf based forum is not where I would necessarily expect to find informed opinion on pensions and the legislation surrounding them but this emotional outburst represents a new low.

For a start you clearly have no understanding of the role of the PPF and its operation.

This is typical as the public generally take no interest in pension provision until it is too late and then expect it all to be put right for them.

If more attention was paid then there might be a better understanding on the part of the public of the difficulties faced by employers in both the public and private sectors in trying to meet what may often be unrealistic expectations of their workforce.

Trades Unions have also been culpable in overlooking these problems whilst focusing almost solely on short term issues.

If that is an informed response to the PPF fund then quite frankly it is rammel. Having/drawing two pensions that are in the PPF fund. I think i would know what i am on about. But obviously you want proof.
So here you are.
1, when my pension the IWMPS went tits up through the company being bankrupt. The pit Thoresby colliery was allowed to start up again the following monday under a new company name. Even though the same pit owed millions to companies. Some could absorb the loss. Others couldn't. My pit knew it couldn't afford to pay into the new Pension fund. But that didn't matter to the government. They allowed the pit to “coal Out” and once more another one of my pensions went into the PPF. Furthermore and what proper grips my poo. Before the coal industry went bust. Tens of thousands of brown belt acres of land between the A1 and M1 corridor was taken out of the mining company assets and a new company was set up. Check um Out
“ Harworth estates”. Peel holdings now have a large interest. They are making millions whilst two of my pensions are now PPF pensions. Hows that right.
Look at British steel aka Tata steel. The steelworkers were given an “option” as individuals if they wanted there pension to go into the PPF so the company could continue. It wasnt even in the PPF laws for that to happen and legislation had to be changed. Yet Tata knew what the liabilities were before they took it over. Like i say. Until the government pulls its finger out re all pensions, Including MPs pensions. It will be abused
Again you mention Unions. Complete and utter rammel. As a Notts miner i am entitled to a spencers union pension of £19.20 Pw. I have paid in nowt. Or 20 K if i take it now. That was set up 50/60 yrs ago. So not all unions are rubbish. Have a look at the average age of death of miners compared to Joe public. It does not make goid reading.
One last thing. For anyone thats interested. Have a look at the PPF site and see how many companies go bust each month and use the PPF as a get out of jail free card.

 

[Hobbit]

I appreciate a golf based forum is not where I would necessarily expect to find informed opinion on pensions and the legislation surrounding them but this emotional outburst represents a new low.

For a start you clearly have no understanding of the role of the PPF and its operation.

This is typical as the public generally take no interest in pension provision until it is too late and then expect it all to be put right for them.

If more attention was paid then there might be a better understanding on the part of the public of the difficulties faced by employers in both the public and private sectors in trying to meet what may often be unrealistic expectations of their workforce.

Trades Unions have also been culpable in overlooking these problems whilst focusing almost solely on short term issues.

Perhaps you could explain why a number of blue chip companies have raised concerns over black holes in their pension funds, or the pension 'holidays' they took when they didn't pay in for a period of time.

Perhaps you could also explain Gordon Brown's raid on private pensions, which took quite a chunk off those pensions, irrespective of whether or not the individual was almost at retirement age and had little time to mitigate those losses.

Maybe you also have a little learning to do too?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

If that is an informed response to the PPF fund then quite frankly it is rammel. Having/drawing two pensions that are in the PPF fund. I think i would know what i am on about. But obviously you want proof.
So here you are.
1, when my pension the IWMPS went tits up through the company being bankrupt. The pit Thoresby colliery was allowed to start up again the following monday under a new company name. Even though the same pit owed millions to companies. Some could absorb the loss. Others couldn't. My pit knew it couldn't afford to pay into the new Pension fund. But that didn't matter to the government. They allowed the pit to “coal Out” and once more another one of my pensions went into the PPF. Furthermore and what proper grips my poo. Before the coal industry went bust. Tens of thousands of brown belt acres of land between the A1 and M1 corridor was taken out of the mining company assets and a new company was set up. Check um Out
“ Harworth estates”. Peel holdings now have a large interest. They are making millions whilst two of my pensions are now PPF pensions. Hows that right.
Look at British steel aka Tata steel. The steelworkers were given an “option” as individuals if they wanted there pension to go into the PPF so the company could continue. It wasnt even in the PPF laws for that to happen and legislation had to be changed. Yet Tata knew what the liabilities were before they took it over. Like i say. Until the government pulls its finger out re all pensions, Including MPs pensions. It will be abused
Again you mention Unions. Complete and utter rammel. As a Notts miner i am entitled to a spencers union pension of £19.20 Pw. I have paid in nowt. Or 20 K if i take it now. That was set up 50/60 yrs ago. So not all unions are rubbish. Have a look at the average age of death of miners compared to Joe public. It does not make goid reading.
One last thing. For anyone thats interested. Have a look at the PPF site and see how many companies go bust each month and use the PPF as a get out of jail free card.

No I am sorry but none of the above displays any understanding of the reality of the situation.

And I speak as someone who has dealt with the PPF on behalf of the Trustees of schemes where the employers have, without exception, gone to great lengths in their attempts to save their employees pension schemes.

Many employers have been faced with the same dilemma of trying to save the company or continue the Final Salary Pension Scheme where, for a whole range of reasons, the funding rates have simply become unaffordable

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Perhaps you could explain why a number of blue chip companies have raised concerns over black holes in their pension funds, or the pension 'holidays' they took when they didn't pay in for a period of time.

Perhaps you could also explain Gordon Brown's raid on private pensions, which took quite a chunk off those pensions, irrespective of whether or not the individual was almost at retirement age and had little time to mitigate those losses.

Maybe you also have a little learning to do too?

Tell you what, I won't tell you about medical equipment and you don't try to teach me about pensions and employee benefits!

 

[Hobbit]

Tell you what, I won't tell you about medical equipment and you don't try to teach me about pensions and employee benefits!

How about just answering the question instead of being a bit arrogant. I'd actually like to know more about Brown's raid + the pensions holidays the companies had. You obviously know, how about sharing?

 

[Tashyboy]

No I am sorry but none of the above displays any understanding of the reality of the situation.

And I speak as someone who has dealt with the PPF on behalf of the Trustees of schemes where the employers have, without exception, gone to great lengths in their attempts to save their employees pension schemes.

Many employers have been faced with the same dilemma of trying to save the company or continue the Final Salary Pension Scheme where, for a whole range of reasons, the funding rates have simply become unaffordable

Yes but by your admission you have dealt with companies/ employers that have gone to great lengths. But as Hobbit says. And a point i was trying to make. Some don't give a toss.
John Lloyd was our chief exec of UK coal. He came in and had the company revalued because the acres of land had never been taken into consideration. It was a master stroke. The company’s value soared from £250 million to over £800 million. He went round all the pits telling everyone how good he was. Until he met tash. I asked him in front of 300 miners what he is doing about the £120 million pension black hole. He coughed and spluttered and mumbled there looking into it. He didn't care of one bit. My mates came outta the meeting and called me black cloud. Three years later the company went bust through its land asset strip and the pension black hole. One or two mentioned when the pits went tits up they remembered me asking about the pension black hole. Back to the PPF. The mining industry going into the PPF was a massive company. Going in the PPf was losing 10% straight away. But it wasnt all doom and gloom. My thoughts wete with companies with 10,20,50 people. Family companies that had gone belly up. Trouble is there is hundreds every year going into the PPF and like i say. Until law changes. It will continue.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

How about just answering the question instead of being a bit arrogant. I'd actually like to know more about Brown's raid + the pensions holidays the companies had. You obviously know, how about sharing?

In many cases, in the 80's and early 90's, Contributions Holidays were effectively forced upon companies by HMRC.

If, as many were at the time, a scheme was deemed to be In Surplus and funded to, if my memory serves me well, 125% plus of its liabilities then continued employers contributions would not be considered tax deductible. During such periods employee contributions continued to be collected and paid into the fund.

By the mid to late 90's the future liabilities of FS schemes were being reassessed with the introduction of more realistic life expectancy tables and falling yields and changes to revaluation etc;

The result was that many schemes that had previously been considered to be very healthy were suddenly faced with increases to funding rates that many employers could not afford.

Brown's changes to ACT also did not help but the other factors were, in my opinion, far more damaging.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

How about just answering the question instead of being a bit arrogant. I'd actually like to know more about Brown's raid + the pensions holidays the companies had. You obviously know, how about sharing?

I can recall the Thatcher Government actively promoting pension holidays to local authorities as a means of supporting the poor Government funding offered to them.

 

[jim8flog]

Perhaps you could explain why a number of blue chip companies have raised concerns over black holes in their pension funds, or the pension 'holidays' they took when they didn't pay in for a period of time.

Perhaps you could also explain Gordon Brown's raid on private pensions, which took quite a chunk off those pensions, irrespective of whether or not the individual was almost at retirement age and had little time to mitigate those losses.

Maybe you also have a little learning to do too?

That is simple

In the majority of cases the pension 'holidays' were enforced by government legislation (came in sometime prior to 1992). When the appropriate government brought in the legislation they were concerned that many pension funds were overfunded and made the companies reduce the funding pot despite the companies arguing that they had to allow for the bad years for investment.

Virtually all company pensions were 'Defined Benefit' schemes prior to that time so individuals in such a scheme were not affected by the change.

It is now one of the major differences between state and private company schemes in that the majority of company schemes are no longer defined benefit ones.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The suggestion today from an advisory body, Centre for Social Justice, for the government has suggested that the pension age rises to 75 based on people living longer and the UK not being able to pay state pensions.

The 5th wealthiest nation in the world can't pay pensions?!? Its paying out about £7k?? Germany and France are paying around £24k.

As for people living longer, oh my bl00dy sides are killing me. In the northeast of England the average life expectancy is between 75.7 and 81, depending on where you live. And the chances of reaching retirement age healthy are exceptionally poor. The average age of a man before he struggles with health in the north east is 61 at best.

I agree the pension age issue and funding needs a serious look at but I'd argue it needs to go down, not up.

Haghill and Carntyne - average male life expectancy 70

 

[Fish]

Its like a carrot & stick, not sure I’ll make it......

 

[Blue in Munich]

Its like a carrot & stick, not sure I’ll make it......

Only the good die young, you're well safe mate