rulefan
Tour Winner
The pro and secretary simply need to make it a Condition of Competition. It could be written such that it applies to all alternate day comps.
Quick qustion on playing before a competition
- Thread starter Jay1
- Start date
Old Skier
Tour Winner
For clarification rulefan, should it be the committee responsible for comps or can it be a decision made by just the pro and secretary.
rulefan
Tour Winner
You are correct but I assumed that the pro and secretary would either be on the comps committee and/or be authorised by the committee to make such decisions.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Ive been saying this in our place for ages and been told im wrong .. Thank You Colin , do you mind if i ask does this Condition of Competition have to be posted up or written up somewhere ..
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Cheers. Would, as I posted earlier, playing of other tees not solve the problem.
Colin L
Tour Winner
No it wouldn't. You would still be playing the competition course. The Definition of course is "the whole area within any boundaries established by the Committee". Changing teeing grounds and pin positions do not change the course.
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Colin L
Tour Winner
I would expect all conditions of a competition to be in writing and available to players. Otherwise how is anyone supposed to know what they are?
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
I would expect all conditions of a competition to be in writing and available to players. Otherwise how is anyone supposed to know what they are?
I often wonder mate. i know it happens ever week in our place and im not aware of it .. im gona as now
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
I still think this is unclear in the rules. Possibly because Alternate day comps are a comparitively recent addition?? The rule says...."Before a round or play-off on any day of a stroke play competition......". To me this can be read in two ways:
1. Before a round or play-off on any day of a stroke play competition, (ie any day practice), or
2. Before a round or play-off on any day of a stroke play competition (ie same day practice)
I'm not saying you're wrong Colin but is there a definitive interpretation or decision anywhere you are basing this on? In other competition you can practice on the competition course the day before so it seems inconsistent to not allow this in alternate day comps. Effectively, your comp day (in this case) is the Sunday. The fact that other folk are playing Saturday maybe shouldn't matter?
Agree it would be much easier all round if the conditions of competition cover it, but I guess they often won't even be written down especially for winter non qualifiers at many places.
CallawayKid
Q-School Graduate
2 day competitions actually can have two different CSS scores and can actually have one day as 'reduction only 'if the competitors on that day do not play well enough. It is a two day competition considered as 2 and then combined to make the winner. You may play on the Saturday prior to competing on a Sunday as it is a different competition. 7.1b is intended for the same day competition, that is the 'spirit' of the rule.
May I just put in this; you decide to play a friendly game on a Friday, then on Saturday you play your competition and notice that one of the tees is in the same place as Friday as well as the pin. Theoretically you should DQ yourself as you have 'practiced on the course'.
Trust me, we have looked into this in some depth and got the answer from the people that know.
CK
May I just put in this; you decide to play a friendly game on a Friday, then on Saturday you play your competition and notice that one of the tees is in the same place as Friday as well as the pin. Theoretically you should DQ yourself as you have 'practiced on the course'.
Trust me, we have looked into this in some depth and got the answer from the people that know.
CK
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
without commenting on anything else, this bit makes no sense - probably better not to have put it in
'practicing on the course' is not prohibited under 7-1b unless it's on "any day of a strokeplay competition".
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
fwiw
7-1b/4 may help where it says "They knew that they would be in breach of Rule 7-1b if they played the North Course,..."
this would support the view that if a player is scheduled to play in a competition on course A the next day, and that competition has already started, they can't play course A even on the previous day.
the general principle behind 7-1, and the difference between stroke play and match play rules in this regard, relates to opportunity ie equal opportunity. In matchplay opponents have equal opportunity (people in different games have different opportunity but in the same match they are the same. In a strokeplay event the rule is in place because not all players would have the same opportunity due to different tee times. Clearly in the situation under discussion, this would apply where players are drawn to play on different days!
so looking at it from a position of the principles supports the view that players in an 18 holes competition being played over 2 days, but drawn to play on day 2, would be in breach of 7-1b if they played the course on day 1.
7-1b/4 may help where it says "They knew that they would be in breach of Rule 7-1b if they played the North Course,..."
this would support the view that if a player is scheduled to play in a competition on course A the next day, and that competition has already started, they can't play course A even on the previous day.
the general principle behind 7-1, and the difference between stroke play and match play rules in this regard, relates to opportunity ie equal opportunity. In matchplay opponents have equal opportunity (people in different games have different opportunity but in the same match they are the same. In a strokeplay event the rule is in place because not all players would have the same opportunity due to different tee times. Clearly in the situation under discussion, this would apply where players are drawn to play on different days!
so looking at it from a position of the principles supports the view that players in an 18 holes competition being played over 2 days, but drawn to play on day 2, would be in breach of 7-1b if they played the course on day 1.
bladeplayer
Money List Winner
Just my thinking or take on this bit highlighted , you can practice on the course the day before once the course has not been set up for that competition , ie pin placements , once it has you can no longer practice on it
as i say just my thoughts im not quoting anywhere
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Colin L
Tour Winner
You do seem to be describing an Alternative Day Competition where part of the field plays on one day and the other part of the field plays on the other. If so, it is one competition. As said before, a competitor playing on the second of the days cannot play on the course on the first day as that is a day of the competition unless there is a condition of competition to allow it. A competitor playing on Friday before a Sat/Sun competition is not practising on the course on the day of a competition and it doesn't matter at all if pin positions are the same on the Saturday as they were the day before.
Certainly a different CSS is calculated for each day but that is a handicapping matter and makes no difference to the application of Rule 7-1b.
Fyldewhite asks for references, which is fair enough. This was quoted as a reply from the R&A in another discussion on the topic:
Players that play on the Saturday before playing in the competition the next day have practised on the course, contrary to Rule 7-1. If the Committee wishes to allow this it can adopt a condition of competition to that effect - see the Note to Rule 7-1.
There is also this from the Golf Union of Wales
Rule 7-1b of the Rules of Golf prohibits practice on the competition course prior to play on any day of a stroke play competition unless a condition of competition permitting practice has been introduced by the Committee in terms of the Note to that Rule. Alternative Day Arrangements exist when a single competition is played over two days (the Main Day and the Alternative Day) which may or may not be consecutive, and in which a player is permitted to compete on only one of the two days. Unless the Committee has introduced a condition of competition permitting practice/play, any player ineligible to play on the first of the two days but intending to play on the second competition day would be in breach of Rule 7-1b (the penalty for which is disqualification) by playing on the competition course at any time during the whole of the first day of the competition
I hope that helps.
Jay1
Head Pro
Still seem to be conflicting views.
To my mind, playing on the Saturday is a breach of 7.1, unless the committee has put a written notice to the competition rules that it is permitted.
So far as I can see there is no such written notice within the competition rules. However, I have now had a formal email from the secretaries office advising that this issue had arisen before and they are happy for people to play on the Saturday and then enter the competition on the Sunday.
I think it is something our place needs to make formal within the competition rules as all our winter monthlys are played over Saturday and Sunday. It's more worrying for this weekends comp though as this is actually a cup competition, not just a monthly.
I'm really glad I asked this question on here now. I nearly didn't, but it's been an interesting discussion.
To my mind, playing on the Saturday is a breach of 7.1, unless the committee has put a written notice to the competition rules that it is permitted.
So far as I can see there is no such written notice within the competition rules. However, I have now had a formal email from the secretaries office advising that this issue had arisen before and they are happy for people to play on the Saturday and then enter the competition on the Sunday.
I think it is something our place needs to make formal within the competition rules as all our winter monthlys are played over Saturday and Sunday. It's more worrying for this weekends comp though as this is actually a cup competition, not just a monthly.
I'm really glad I asked this question on here now. I nearly didn't, but it's been an interesting discussion.
backwoodsman
Tour Winner
Because I laboured on a bit in another rules thread, was a bit loathe to stick my head above the parapet again. I think Fylde is correct in that there are different interpretation of the phrasing. But, without being sure, I was coming to the same conclusion as Colin & Duncan and others (and even got as far thinking that decision 7-1b/4 was a helpful indicator - so nice to think that I occasionally get to the same point as those more knowledgable). But as my efforts on the other thread demonstrate, I like to "see the certainty" so good to see the references provided by Colin. (Where do you guys learn this stuff ??).
I generally think the rules are phrased quite well - but I do think this one could be worded better as it doesn't seem to take much account of alternate day format. Is that because AD format has been regarded as somewhat a "wrong side of the blanket" format until relatively modern times?
I generally think the rules are phrased quite well - but I do think this one could be worded better as it doesn't seem to take much account of alternate day format. Is that because AD format has been regarded as somewhat a "wrong side of the blanket" format until relatively modern times?
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
Yep, that seems clear enough Colin, thanks. I don't necessarily agree with the ruling as to me it still seems inconsistent with other competitions and the "sprit" of the original rule which I don't think was written with AD comps in mind. Just needs committees to be sensible and rule accordingly though. Cheers.
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