Premier League 2019-2020 we’re off

[Slab]

Time has come to reset the transfer market as it has got silly

Let’s just move the decimal place back to where it belongs

Maguire shall cost 8.0 million
Dunk shall cost 4.5 million

This fekir shall be a gamble at 2.0 million

Our record signing Haller would be 4.5 million just over half of the 7.5 million we paid for Ashton who had premier league Experience and English tax.. about right

Neymar can cost a world record 20 million

All shall be right again

Sounds good but need to follow it with;
Premier League only get 500m for tv rights
Sky only need to charge £10pm for sports pack
Season tickets are a couple hundred
Replica kits are worth a tenner
The best players will still get 100 grand a month in wages

Every fan in the country is happy as they have more disposable income


However the only person with the power to make it happen is 'every fan in the country'.... and unfortunately they just wont

 

[Slab]

I'd Tierney has the potential to be as good as Robertson, but not at that level yet, needs to prove it in a top league. Tough break for him really, being a Scottish LB at the same time as Robertson, and for Scotland as well, as they've got one world class and one potentially world class player and they both play the same position.

A better left back than Robertson, what are you smoking 🤣🤣
Once he’s proved himself in arguably the toughest league in the world and the Champions League, then you can start comparing.
There’s not a better left back than Andy Robertson at the moment.

Gents I know this isn't specifically what you were discussing but help me out here. I’ll happily admit there are significant gaps in my football knowledge and this is one of them. What is it that players needs to ‘do’ in the premier league to ‘prove themselves’? What makes the premier league the toughest in the world that it requires players to achieve ‘something’ there? (which most players don’t) before they’ve succeeded

Is it that they need to win something? Then statistically most players in the premier league fail dismally at this. Their value should plummet, yet run of the mill PL clubs are selling these unsuccessful players on to the bigger clubs for tens of millions. Players are even heading into run of the mill/mediocre PL clubs from all over the world for tens of millions each (players, who by this definition, haven’t proved themselves!)

As one example, what is it about playing (& not consistently winning) for a club such as Crystal Palace that makes Wilfried Zaha’s value to be many tens of millions. What has he proved or achieved in several years of playing in the PL, the answer seems to be zip/nada/nowt. Yet clubs are bickering about numbers in the 40-80 million range!

In the PL the only chance clubs like Palace (& most others) have to win anything at all is in the cups, yet this fella can barely get a game in either cup in the last three years. His biggest achievement with Palace appears to be a runners up medal 4 years ago. It’s not even as if the guys good for 20 goals a season (or has even shown any inkling that’s within reach in future)

In short what has he done or proved in the Premier League?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

In terms of Zaha he has shown that even in a poor team, ie with minimal assistance, he can beat players, he can create chances, he can win penalties, he can score goals. Players like that are rare. There are plenty of workhorses in the PL, creative players are harder to find. If he can do that in a poor team what could he do with better players to finish his chances, give him more space, supply him with better passes?

The gamble for bigger clubs is whether he can transfer that to a team that will likely give him less leeway or freedom to roam, be more structured.

He hasn't won medals but that is unlikely at the club he is at so his value is not linked to medals. His value is screwy but is just how it is.

Compare this to the lad just bought by Newcastle for £40m. He has not played in the PL before, will he cope with the pace, the physical aspect etc. That is a gamble, he is untested in what is quite a tough league to settle in. At least with Zaha you know what he can do in this league.

 

[Beezerk]

I've always wanted Zaha to really show his talent after he broke onto the scene years ago. Sadly after watching him numerous times on the TV he looks like a bit of a show pony with no real end product. Im probably wrong lol but all I've seen is...get ball, try fancy turn, fall over, look for free kick...get ball, try and take three people on, lose ball, look for free kick.
There's loads of these types in the Prem already, Lingard at Man Utd springs straight to mind, flatters to deceive and effectively has very little end product.
If he really was any good he'd have been playing at a big club years ago.
There I said it 😅

 

[howbow88]

The guy is worth £80mil because of two things:

The market is insane. Harry Maguire will go for that sort of money, and he's a half decent centre back. Zaha is a rare talent and has proven for a few seasons now that he can play well in the Premier League.

If we sell him, we will need to replace him with someone who is at least not bad, or we will go down. Staying up is worth a lot more than even £80mil.

As an aside, he's never likely to get you 20 goals a season because he is predominantly a winger...

 

[howbow88]

I've always wanted Zaha to really show his talent after he broke onto the scene years ago. Sadly after watching him numerous times on the TV he looks like a bit of a show pony with no real end product. Im probably wrong lol but all I've seen is...get ball, try fancy turn, fall over, look for free kick...get ball, try and take three people on, lose ball, look for free kick.
There's loads of these types in the Prem already, Lingard at Man Utd springs straight to mind, flatters to deceive and effectively has very little end product.
If he really was any good he'd have been playing at a big club years ago.
There I said it 😅

He is better than that but I can see why if you don't watch him week in week out, he can give off that impression.

The goal he set up against Bournemouth at the very end of last season was magnificent. The last one on here:

 

[Dan2501]

One thing that Zaha doesn't get enough credit for is how strong he is and how difficult it is to get the ball off him. When I watched Palace at Goodison last season he frustrated us the whole game, couldn't get the ball off him and he did a fantastic job holding the ball up and creating attacks and chances. He was impressive and think if he had some decent service he could be a very solid performer and put away a good few goals.

 

[howbow88]

His composure in front of goal isn't the best, and he loses his rag when things don't go his way. We get a lot of penalties as a team, but the truth is that we should arguably get a few more.

With VAR coming in, he will definitely get more penalties awarded.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Perhaps players values have gone up so much because no PL clubs have to sell to keep going as they get so much now from the tv deals.
The days of PL clubs needing to sell to invest are gone.

 

[Slab]

In terms of Zaha he has shown that even in a poor team, ie with minimal assistance, he can beat players, he can create chances, he can win penalties, he can score goals. Players like that are rare. There are plenty of workhorses in the PL, creative players are harder to find. If he can do that in a poor team what could he do with better players to finish his chances, give him more space, supply him with better passes?

The gamble for bigger clubs is whether he can transfer that to a team that will likely give him less leeway or freedom to roam, be more structured.

He hasn't won medals but that is unlikely at the club he is at so his value is not linked to medals. His value is screwy but is just how it is.

Compare this to the lad just bought by Newcastle for £40m. He has not played in the PL before, will he cope with the pace, the physical aspect etc. That is a gamble, he is untested in what is quite a tough league to settle in. At least with Zaha you know what he can do in this league.

I’m not having a go at Palace or the player. It’s this often quoted perception that the premier league is somehow the best/toughest when it’s just not. And also that players somehow have to play in it to prove something (the Man U boss said himself that the Palace player he got for 50mil a few weeks back was prob the best ‘up & coming’ player. He hasn’t done squat in the PL yet other than show sufficient potential for Man U to take a risk)

Re toughest league; 70% of the entrants each year aren’t even in the league competition from day 1. They are literally no-hopers. After the first ¼ of games another 10-15% can be dismissed. The league title is at best only between 15% of the clubs (20%in a good year) so each club then has a 33% chance of winning the league or 1 in 3, how is that the toughest league?
Most of the entrants are no-hopers, most of the 'competition' just isn't competition

Look at the odds, West Ham spent 45mil on a single player and they are 500-1 and they’re not even close to being the outside bet! Or is 'toughest/best' just another way of saying uncompetitive?

Back to Zaha, you say he's in a poor team which I get... but isn't 80% of his games currently played against other poor teams (teams also with no hope of winning the league, just like his team) so why should he still struggle to reach double figures for goals and by what measure is beating players and creating chances against these poor teams (even when you're in a poor team yourself) somehow proving himself?
Anyway even if he did move to a good team then surely 80% of his games will still be against these same poor teams that he under-performs against now (which the good team are already beating without him anyway)

 

[Orikoru]

Gents I know this isn't specifically what you were discussing but help me out here. I’ll happily admit there are significant gaps in my football knowledge and this is one of them. What is it that players needs to ‘do’ in the premier league to ‘prove themselves’? What makes the premier league the toughest in the world that it requires players to achieve ‘something’ there? (which most players don’t) before they’ve succeeded

Is it that they need to win something? Then statistically most players in the premier league fail dismally at this. Their value should plummet, yet run of the mill PL clubs are selling these unsuccessful players on to the bigger clubs for tens of millions. Players are even heading into run of the mill/mediocre PL clubs from all over the world for tens of millions each (players, who by this definition, haven’t proved themselves!)

As one example, what is it about playing (& not consistently winning) for a club such as Crystal Palace that makes Wilfried Zaha’s value to be many tens of millions. What has he proved or achieved in several years of playing in the PL, the answer seems to be zip/nada/nowt. Yet clubs are bickering about numbers in the 40-80 million range!

In the PL the only chance clubs like Palace (& most others) have to win anything at all is in the cups, yet this fella can barely get a game in either cup in the last three years. His biggest achievement with Palace appears to be a runners up medal 4 years ago. It’s not even as if the guys good for 20 goals a season (or has even shown any inkling that’s within reach in future)

In short what has he done or proved in the Premier League?

In my view proving yourself in the Prem just means playing consistently well for a long period of time, say one whole season as a minimum. i.e. Wan-Bissaka did it last season playing exceptionally well for Palace, and consequently has moved to a 'big six' club. If you're playing in the Prem you're playing in the strongest league in the world against many of the world's best players, so if you play well there big clubs know it is not too much of a gamble to spend big money on you. It's not about winning trophies because this is a team game but we're talking about judging individual players - individuals don't trophies on their own (player of the month/year aside).

In the case of Zaha, I wouldn't say he's proven he's one of the best in the league or anything, but he has proven he can put in good performances against Premier League opposition, and that's what you want from your player week in week out. I mean he only really scored against the poorer teams, but 3 weeks out of 5 those are the teams you're playing anyway.

 

[Orikoru]

Re toughest league; 70% of the entrants each year aren’t even in the league competition from day 1. They are literally no-hopers. After the first ¼ of games another 10-15% can be dismissed. The league title is at best only between 15% of the clubs (20%in a good year) so each club then has a 33% chance of winning the league or 1 in 3, how is that the toughest league?
Most of the entrants are no-hopers, most of the 'competition' just isn't competition

Look at the odds, West Ham spent 45mil on a single player and they are 500-1 and they’re not even close to being the outside bet! Or is 'toughest/best' just another way of saying uncompetitive?

Back to Zaha, you say he's in a poor team which I get... but isn't 80% of his games currently played against other poor teams (teams also with no hope of winning the league, just like his team) so why should he still struggle to reach double figures for goals and by what measure is beating players and creating chances against these poor teams (even when you're in a poor team yourself) somehow proving himself?
Anyway even if he did move to a good team then surely 80% of his games will still be against these same poor teams that he under-performs against now (which the good team are already beating without him anyway)

I think you're a bit wide of the mark here. In my view the Prem is the strongest league, because teams that are 16th and 17th here are comparable to the teams that come 8th, 9th, 10th in Germany, Spain, Italy. It's the strength in depth, not just the strength of the teams up the top.

Your example of West Ham actually proves my point in a way, even the mid-table sides are assembling expensive teams of good players. Hence there are very few easy games in a easy if all the teams have players of that level to deal with.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I’m not having a go at Palace or the player. It’s this often quoted perception that the premier league is somehow the best/toughest when it’s just not. And also that players somehow have to play in it to prove something (the Man U boss said himself that the Palace player he got for 50mil a few weeks back was prob the best ‘up & coming’ player. He hasn’t done squat in the PL yet other than show sufficient potential for Man U to take a risk)

Re toughest league; 70% of the entrants each year aren’t even in the league competition from day 1. They are literally no-hopers. After the first ¼ of games another 10-15% can be dismissed. The league title is at best only between 15% of the clubs (20%in a good year) so each club then has a 33% chance of winning the league or 1 in 3, how is that the toughest league?
Most of the entrants are no-hopers, most of the 'competition' just isn't competition

Look at the odds, West Ham spent 45mil on a single player and they are 500-1 and they’re not even close to being the outside bet! Or is 'toughest/best' just another way of saying uncompetitive?

Back to Zaha, you say he's in a poor team which I get... but isn't 80% of his games currently played against other poor teams (teams also with no hope of winning the league, just like his team) so why should he still struggle to reach double figures for goals and by what measure is beating players and creating chances against these poor teams (even when you're in a poor team yourself) somehow proving himself?
Anyway even if he did move to a good team then surely 80% of his games will still be against these same poor teams that he under-performs against now (which the good team are already beating without him anyway)

Which league is tougher than the Prem ?

And it’s “toughness” is not just about winning it - there are three or four big battles going on

You have the battle to win the league which will be between 6 teams historically- then the battle for top 4 , then the mid table team battle then the one to avoid relegation

These players are not in “poor” teams - they are still in teams full of internationals and players who have played at the highest level for a number of years , just because they are in a City or Liverpool doesn’t make them a poor team - every team has a battle throughout the season and each player will be testing themselves against some of the best in the world

The depth of competition within the Prem is very strong and most of the team it’s because of the money on offer

The likes of PSG , Madrid and Barcelona may have the superstars but in leagues where 90% of the games are just a stroll and non existent

 

[Beezerk]

Your example of West Ham actually proves my point in a way, even the mid-table sides are assembling expensive teams of good players. Hence there are very few easy games in a easy if all the teams have players of that level to deal with.

Alternatively, these mid/low table Prem teams are paying way over the odds for above average players, all in a desperate attempt to avoid relegation.

 

[Orikoru]

Alternatively, these mid/low table Prem teams are paying way over the odds for above average players, all in a desperate attempt to avoid relegation.

I'm sure they are, but that still doesn't mean what I said was wrong.

 

[Beezerk]

I'm sure they are, but that still doesn't mean what I said was wrong.

We could contest the "good players" bit of you want? 😅

 

[Slab]

I think you're a bit wide of the mark here. In my view the Prem is the strongest league, because teams that are 16th and 17th here are comparable to the teams that come 8th, 9th, 10th in Germany, Spain, Italy. It's the strength in depth, not just the strength of the teams up the top.

Your example of West Ham actually proves my point in a way, even the mid-table sides are assembling expensive teams of good players. Hence there are very few easy games in a easy if all the teams have players of that level to deal with.

You might well be right, this is pretty much what I was asking. But how do we know this. Whats to stop bundesliga fans making the same claim?

 

[Orikoru]

We could contest the "good players" bit of you want? 😅

The point is you don't see bottom half teams abroad throwing this kind of money around to assemble squads like that do you?

 

[Slab]

Which league is tougher than the Prem ?

And it’s “toughness” is not just about winning it - there are three or four big battles going on

You have the battle to win the league which will be between 6 teams historically- then the battle for top 4 , then the mid table team battle then the one to avoid relegation

These players are not in “poor” teams - they are still in teams full of internationals and players who have played at the highest level for a number of years , just because they are in a City or Liverpool doesn’t make them a poor team - every team has a battle throughout the season and each player will be testing themselves against some of the best in the world

The depth of competition within the Prem is very strong and most of the team it’s because of the money on offer

The likes of PSG , Madrid and Barcelona may have the superstars but in leagues where 90% of the games are just a stroll and non existent

Shouldn't it be which league is the PL tougher than? (I'm not the one making the claim)

But if you mean tougher to win I agree, it is indeed very tough to win/un-competitive, just as I said in the post

And with 70% of clubs having no chance of winning then the players are therefore absolutely in poor or inadequate teams for the competition they are playing in. How can that be disputed

But most teams aren't trying to win it are they, they are simply trying to survive. And part of that survival will be battles in mid table/relegation as you say. Not much of a CV to stake the claim of toughest/best, just like pretty much every team in every other top division around the world

Your example of West Ham actually proves my point in a way, even the mid-table sides are assembling expensive teams of good players. Hence there are very few easy games in a easy if all the teams have players of that level to deal with.

Does it matter if West Ham could take Schalke to the cleaners, they're not in a comp against Schalke

 

[Orikoru]

Does it matter if West Ham could take Schalke to the cleaners, they're not in a comp against Schalke

Well no but we're talking about relative quality of the leagues. So a typical season for Barcelona, they might have 4 really tough games, 6-8 challenging ones and over 20 where they expect to stuff the opposition. Whereas City for example, the ratio is more like 8 or so tough games, 10 challenging ones and 15+ stuffings. If everything went as expected of course.