Pin position moved during qualifying comp

[BTatHome]

Scenario .... Players tee off early with a little rain, course is still playable. Slowly rain become heavy until such point that one green becomes too wet to play with the current pin position (flag is surrounded by 2 feet of water, and there is no relief to be obtained). Green keeper arrives and moves the pin (only about 20 ft form original position but now to clear area of green). He does this between two groups using the green. Rain clears quickly and within 20 mins of pin being moved the whole green is clear again.

so what is the status of the comp? Can it remain a qualifier (even though groups have played to two different pin positions on one green)? If not, can it even remain a competition if players are playing to a different course configuration?

 

[Old Skier]

Not a comp in my eyes, two different courses. Never heard of greenkeepers changing pin positions during a game.

 

[rulefan]

Edited on reorganisation of my brain

33-2d/2

Hole Surrounded by Casual Water

If all the area around a hole contains casual water, in stroke play the course should be considered unplayable and the Committee should suspend play under Rule 33-2d. In match play, the Committee should relocate the hole.

 

[JohnnyDee]

No expert but cannot imagine the comp has any standing as a qualifier, once pin altered, as the entire field has not played same course.

Mcilroy & Casey had to resume their playoff with the pins unaltered from yesterday this morning, and only then could they be moved for today's semis.

Not the same thing of course but not dissimilar in the spirit of the rules.

Edit:

Post above says it was OK so what do I know?👀

 

[rulefan]

Post above says it was OK so what do I know?

More than me. I had match play in my mind.

 

[JohnnyDee]

It's a minefield I tells yah! 😄😄

 

[BTatHome]

Given it was NOT matchplay, and that suspension did not happen, what can done? at the very least surely the qualifier is not valid, but does it make sense for it to still be a valid comp .... for me as soon as they moved the pin it threw the thing into chaos and I believed they should have simply cancelled the comp.

 

[Foxholer]

Happened in an Open Qualifying comp at Sunningdale a few years ago when a downpour made a Par 3 unplayable with the pin where it was.

They made the half dozen players that had played it replay it. One(Fredrick Andersson-Hed) was rather unhappy, having birdied it normally, he bogey-ed it in the replay then had to wait for several hours to find that he had qualified (or maybe even had to do so in a playoff!).

 

[rosecott]

I can see nothing in the CONGU manual to cover the situation but this is from the R&A Guide to Running Competitions:

If rain is not of sufficient intensity to present an unfair situation, but heavy enough to cause casual water around a hole, in match play the Committee may relocate the hole if a suitable area not under water can be found, and then resume play. However, in stroke play it is not permissible to relocate a hole unless it is severely damaged – see the Exception under Rule 33-2b. Accordingly, play cannot be resumed until the casual water problem is resolved.

 

[rulefan]

I can see nothing in the CONGU manual to cover the situation but this is from the R&A Guide to Running Competitions:

If rain is not of sufficient intensity to present an unfair situation, but heavy enough to cause casual water around a hole, in match play the Committee may relocate the hole if a suitable area not under water can be found, and then resume play. However, in stroke play it is not permissible to relocate a hole unless it is severely damaged – see the Exception under Rule 33-2b. Accordingly, play cannot be resumed until the casual water problem is resolved.

Two seasons ago in two of our county team championships rounds we had had torrential rain whilst the last few groups came in.

We suspended play and held up the last 5 groups to play each of the last 3 holes in succession whilst a team of referees and volunteers squeegeed each green in turn.

 

[IanMcC]

Something similar has happened at our Club today. One of the greens staff moved some of the pins after some groups had teed off. It is a 9 hole comp, qualifier for handicap purposes. My thoughts are that the comp is invalidated, and all fees returned, but the scores can still go through to Wales Golf as qualifiers. Am I correct here? I know, in theory, it could affect the PCC, but it's highly unlikely.

 

[IanMcC]

Today, one of the greens staff moved some of the pins after some groups had teed off. It is a 9 hole comp, qualifier for handicap purposes. My thoughts are that the comp is invalidated, and all fees returned, but the scores can still go through to Wales Golf as qualifiers. Am I correct here? I know, in theory, it could affect the PCC, but it's highly unlikely.

 

[Colin L]

I can't see any reason why in those circumstances scores should not be acceptable for handicapping purposes. Recalculation of your handicap index is an individual matter based on your gross score against the course rating (which does not change according to pin positions). In handicapping terms, there is no "field", no unfairness and in PCC terms no difference from any other day when conditions can change considerably in the course of a day.

Would anyone suggest that if pin positions were changed during a non-competition day, general play scores after the change would not be acceptable? Seems no different for this to happen during a competition. The competition itself, as said, is a very different matter.

 

[IanMcC]

That is my thoughts, Colin. My only worry is Rules of Handicapping 2.1, where it mentions 'length and normal playing difficulty is maintained at a consistent level' to be acceptable .

 

[Foxholer]

That is my thoughts, Colin. My only worry is Rules of Handicapping 2.1, where it mentions 'length and normal playing difficulty is maintained at a consistent level' to be acceptable .

That wouldn't be likely to change (significantly) though.

 

[jim8flog]

When I went on web search I realised this thread was started in 2105 as I got deja vu

From a dim and distant memory there was something in the decisions book about this. Would it still apply?

 

[rosecott]

Today, one of the greens staff moved some of the pins after some groups had teed off. It is a 9 hole comp, qualifier for handicap purposes. My thoughts are that the comp is invalidated, and all fees returned, but the scores can still go through to Wales Golf as qualifiers. Am I correct here? I know, in theory, it could affect the PCC, but it's highly unlikely.

Committee Procedures 6b:

The committee should avoid moving any tee markers or holes after groups have played a hole., but there may be some situations where this cannot be avoided or where they are moved by someone else in error.

So, should not rather than must not.

 

[IanMcC]

If this gives us an option, I would still invalidate the comp, as I have done. I think the unrest would be greater if we let things stand with players having different pins, as opposed to cancelling and refunding.

 

[Colin L]

I was sure I had posted a reply to this question.

I had. It was in the previous, identical thread.

 

[IanMcC]

I appended my original post to a suitable thread from 2015, then thought Id better start a new one. Apologies. Just me panicking.