Pile of sticks gathered by Greenkeepers

[Ross61]

I found my ball in the middle of a pile of fallen sticks in a wooded area. They appear to have been gathered as they were all pilled generally in parallel. I know the area had been tidied up during the lockdown.
In the rules I can find in the definition of GUR that free relief is appropriate if they are intended for removal.
Without knowing if they are intended for removal how do I proceed.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I would clear what you can without disturbing the ball, and play it as best I can.

 

[Grant85]

I found my ball in the middle of a pile of fallen sticks in a wooded area. They appear to have been gathered as they were all pilled generally in parallel. I know the area had been tidied up during the lockdown.
In the rules I can find in the definition of GUR that free relief is appropriate if they are intended for removal.
Without knowing if they are intended for removal how do I proceed.

I'd assume by the letter of the law you have to take an unplayable under penalty... so it's 2 club lengths, as far back between ball and hole or back to where you played previous shot.

Perhaps there would need to be a notice up on the 1st tee if the intention was for this to be GUR.

 

[backwoodsman]

My take on it is ...

If the sticks/branches are all in a pile lying parallel to each other, then this has to have been done deliberately. It is not a natural occurence to find branches lying in this manner. Therefore, they must have been piled this way for a purpose. The actual purpose (for now) is not important but there can only be two broad possibilities - a) a purpose which involves taking them away, or b) a purpose which involves them staying put.

If the intention is (a), then they are piled for removal and therefore they are GUR - and you get free relief. If the purose is (b) then they must count as an artificial construction (because it has not occurred naturally0, and will therefore be an obstruction - for which free relief is available. I would suggest that although the pile can be easily dismantled, whoever created the pile did so for a reason, and presumably would not want the pile dismantled again - and so it should regarded as an immovable obstruction.

However, the club (ie the "committee") really ought to make it clear as to the staus of any such piles.

I now await to see if the proper rules experts dismantle my interpretation?

 

[rulefan]

Play 2 balls under Rule 20.1c(3)
A player who is uncertain about the right procedure while playing a hole may complete the hole with two balls without penalty: ..........................

 

[Maninblack4612]

The rule says "Grass cuttings, leaves and any other material piled for later removal. But: a) any natural materials that are piled for removal are also loose impediments. Surely the intention would be to remove the sticks at some point therefore, under the Rules, you'll be able to remove the sticks & replace the ball. I'd tell you more if the useless R & A Rules app would work.

 

[rulefan]

Surely the default position is that nobody can guess that they are intended for removal, therefore without that knowledge you have to assume they are not.

If you are playing at your home club or a course you know pretty well, you may well know the greenkeeper's ethos. I know at my club any pile of recent windfall branches are 'piled for later removal'. As would be a pile of excavation material on or near the fairway or green. Certainly a stack of old logs in the jungle would not.
But re post #4, I'm not sure that all 'material not piled for later removal' would qualify as an IO.

 

[backwoodsman]

If you are playing at your home club or a course you know pretty well, you may well know the greenkeeper's ethos. I know at my club any pile of recent windfall branches are 'piled for later removal'. As would be a pile of excavation material on or near the fairway or green. Certainly a stack of old logs in the jungle would not.
But re post #4, I'm not sure that all 'material not piled for later removal' would qualify as an IO.

I was really only working out an argument- so can't defend it in any serious manner. But was only thinking that if it was piled up, it was piled up for a reason - and if not for removal then it was "built" for something else. One possibility could be as "habitat" (eg an "insect hotel") whose builder certainly wouldn't want it dismantled (but I don't how many courses are really environmentally active for that kind of stuff). In the absence of real clarity from the club/committee, I guess the "play two balls" solution you pointed out is the only real option.

 

[Ross61]

Thanks for the replies. It was only a social game so playing 2 balls wasn’t necessary, but obviously there was a discussion about the rule. Mainly as I wanted to know the answer so if I happens again in a comp I would be better informed.
My take was it was obviously carefully piled up so it could be collected easily. One of my partners said it had been there for about a month so it wasn’t going to be picked up.
The rule feels are bit weak to me as regards the issue of the intention of the green staff.

 

[Ross61]

I would clear what you can without disturbing the ball, and play it as best I can.

Unfortunately the depth that the ball was in the pile it would have been like playing a game of Kerplunk which would have been far to risky.
Thinking about this I still would have proceeded with just one ball as I would have taken the same action but just needed to find out whether I needed to record a penalty or not.

 

[rulie]

Unfortunately the depth that the ball was in the pile it would have been like playing a game of Kerplunk which would have been far to risky.
Thinking about this I still would have proceeded with just one ball as I would have taken the same action but just needed to find out whether I needed to record a penalty or not.

You are permitted to continue with one ball and take "relief" by dropping the ball in a relief area that satisfies both the GUR Rule (Rule 16) and the unplayable ball Rule (Rule 19), then seeking clarification from the Committee as to the status of the piled material.

 

[rulefan]

But re post #4, I'm not sure that all 'material not piled for later removal' would qualify as an IO.

A pile of logs not piled for later removal would not qualify for relief under 16.1 but the individual logs would still be LIs.
If however the log pile is built as an animal habitat, it should declared to be an ACC by local rule.

 

[Orikoru]

I would clear what you can without disturbing the ball, and play it as best I can.

I'd do this as well, since there's no way to be certain on why the sticks are there etc. Unless it's very very obvious (like backwoodsman said - all tightly piled and parallel) then I would make sure I have my FC's agreement on that before taking a free drop. But any doubt at all, then as Bunkermagnet said.

 

[rulefan]

I'd do this as well, since there's no way to be certain on why the sticks are there etc. Unless it's very very obvious (like backwoodsman said - all tightly piled and parallel) then I would make sure I have my FC's agreement on that before taking a free drop. But any doubt at all, then as Bunkermagnet said.

Remember your FC is not a referee. Your committee should have made a local rule if free relief is available. Otherwise play two balls and report it to the committee (especially if its a qualifier).

 

[Orikoru]

Remember your FC is not a referee. Your committee should have made a local rule if free relief is available. Otherwise play two balls and report it to the committee (especially if its a qualifier).

I never ever remember that that's an option. I'm sure I'm not alone here - I normally just decide what the best course of action is, and if it's wrong it's wrong. Maybe now it'll stick in my mind next time.

 

[jim8flog]

I never ever remember that that's an option. I'm sure I'm not alone here - I normally just decide what the best course of action is, and if it's wrong it's wrong. Maybe now it'll stick in my mind next time.

In rulefan's brief point about playing 2 balls you should know the full procedure

(3) Playing Two Balls When Uncertain What to Do. A player who is uncertain about the right procedure while playing a hole may complete the hole with two balls without penalty:
• The player must decide to play two balls after the uncertain situation arises and before making a stroke.
• The player should choose which ball will count if the Rules allow the procedure used for that ball, by announcing that choice to his or her marker or to another player before making a stroke.
• If the player does not choose in time, the ball played first is treated as the ball chosen by default.
• The player must report the facts of the situation to the Committee before returning the scorecard, even if the player scores the same with both balls. The player is disqualified if he or she fails to do so.
• If the player made a stroke before deciding to play a second ball:
 This Rule does not apply at all and the score that counts is the score with the ball played before the player decided to play the second ball.
 But the player gets no penalty for playing the second ball.
A second ball played under this Rule is not the same as a provisional ball under Rule 18.3.

 

[IanM]

.....sticks/grass cuttings in the woods.... have a guess!

 

[sunshine]

Thanks for the replies. It was only a social game so playing 2 balls wasn’t necessary, but obviously there was a discussion about the rule. Mainly as I wanted to know the answer so if I happens again in a comp I would be better informed.
My take was it was obviously carefully piled up so it could be collected easily. One of my partners said it had been there for about a month so it wasn’t going to be picked up.
The rule feels are bit weak to me as regards the issue of the intention of the green staff.

Are you sure the greenkeepers left the sticks there? Sounds like it could have been the blair witch.

 

[rulie]

One thing to note about "piled for removal", an Interpretation of the definition of GUR says that the material is piled for "later" removal; it does not specify what "later" means - could be days, weeks, or months before they get around to it. Nor do the Rules specify where the material piled for removal is located - fairways or rough is irrelevant if the greens crew intend to remove it at some future date. It's an issue for the Committee in charge to decide and inform the players.

 

[IanMcC]

Today I was asked about an occurrence very relevant to this thread. Our 12th hole is a par 3 over a wide ditch in front of the green. The ditch is a red penalty area. Our greenstaff had collected debris from the ditch, and it was obviously piled for later removal. The pile was inside the penalty area, however. A players ball went into this pile, and they asked me later if they were entitled to free relief at all. I honestly didn't know, but said that as it was not in the general area, no free relief was available. Did I give correct info, or was a free drop available inside the penalty area?