PCC review

[rulefan]

Being able to recreate PCC is pointless without having access to a substantial amount of daily scores in order to make the calculations meaningful. It's unlikely that would ever be the case for a third party unofficial handicap provider.

I believe Golfshake alone has about 100000 users.

 

[rulefan]

Maybe I dont understand the model here. Who owns the specification of the algorithm? I’m sssuming that it is the handicapping body. And that they pay a software company to implement that algorithm on a system which runs overnight calculating all the PCCs for clubs based on the scores submitted the previous day.

The IPR would rest with the client, not the software company. Who else is going to buy the software?

They wouldn't buy it. Access the algorithm from the published details and write the software themselves. If challenged over IPR, make a few tweeks. But they haven't been challenged over the software they already use (which incorporates the rest of WHS).

 

[wjemather]

I believe Golfshake alone has about 100000 users.

With respect to PCC (or equivalent), that means nothing when an insignificant number will ever submit scores from the same course on any given day. They would need access to non-Golfshake members scores, i.e. club members scores, as official products such as iGolf do, in order to make it work.

 

[rulefan]

With respect to PCC (or equivalent), that means nothing when an insignificant number will ever submit scores from the same course on any given day.

Sorry, I was just about to edit my post.

Edit: As PCC is course based they would then target small pay 'n' play courses rather than unattached players. They would almost certainly undercut the major ISVs. And the course wouldn't be lumbered with national and county annual subscriptions. There are three such courses within 10 miles of me.

 

[Backsticks]

Does anyone know why some days the PCC appears immediately on entering you score, and other days it is left blank and only applied during the night with the hc update ?

As the PCC is only calculated by the WHS hub overnight I find that very odd. Are you sure?

As posted before, I was sure. But now know why it happens.
Once a month we have a competition that is a singles round stableford, but you can play Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. But players from the weekend (the vaste majority) such as myself, are effectively putting in Friday cards but a day or two late as the computer sees it, and so given the Friday PCC. Hence why the pcc is visible and my handicap adjusts immediately I submit my card after my round on a Sunday morning.

Its why some weekends it would happen, some it wouldnt. I always just play Sunday morning, regardless of whether its a normal single day comp, or the one amalgamated over 3 days.

A curious bug in the system

 

[wjemather]

As posted before, I was sure. But now know why it happens.
Once a month we have a competition that is a singles round stableford, but you can play Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. But players from the weekend (the vaste majority) such as myself, are effectively putting in Friday cards but a day or two late as the computer sees it, and so given the Friday PCC. Hence why the pcc is visible and my handicap adjusts immediately I submit my card after my round on a Sunday morning.

Its why some weekends it would happen, some it wouldnt. I always just play Sunday morning, regardless of whether its a normal single day comp, or the one amalgamated over 3 days.

A curious bug in the system

You aren't describing a bug in the WHS system, but a problem with how the alternate day competitions are setup (incorrectly) in your ISV software (IG, ClubV1, Handicapmaster, Golf Genius, etc.).

Many (perhaps most, or even all) ISVs simply don't facilitate alternate day comps as a single event; they must be setup as separate comps (one for each day) otherwise all scores are recorded with the first day of play and sent to WHS. An aggregate can then be run to amalgamate the scores.

 

[Backsticks]

Yes, I did mean a bug (or missing facility) in the software, not WHS. ClubV1.

 

[yandabrown]

As posted before, I was sure. But now know why it happens.
Once a month we have a competition that is a singles round stableford, but you can play Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. But players from the weekend (the vaste majority) such as myself, are effectively putting in Friday cards but a day or two late as the computer sees it, and so given the Friday PCC. Hence why the pcc is visible and my handicap adjusts immediately I submit my card after my round on a Sunday morning.

Its why some weekends it would happen, some it wouldnt. I always just play Sunday morning, regardless of whether its a normal single day comp, or the one amalgamated over 3 days.

A curious bug in the system

Is it possible that sometimes there are not enough entries on the Friday to create a PCC?

 

[Backsticks]

Is it possible that sometimes there are not enough entries on the Friday to create a PCC?

Possibly, but even then, it shows as zero on my Sunday morning, rather than to be determined, which would be the more normal, until it is calculated during the following night. It was the fact of seeing an already calculated value, regardless the number itself, at midday, but only some weekends, that I couldnt figure out at first.

 

[wjemather]

Yes, I did mean a bug (or missing facility) in the software, not WHS. ClubV1.

The software is working as designed.

As indicated, with ClubV1, your competition committee need to setup a separate competition for each day, and then run an "aggregate print" to produce a single result. Otherwise ClubV1 stamps all scores with the date of competition (the first day), regardless of when they are played or entered on the system. The alternative is to manually adjust all scores on WHS before midnight each day to reflect the correct date of play.

I don't know how something like this goes unnoticed/unchecked by competition and handicap committees for (presumably) over 2 years.

 

[Swango1980]

The software is working as designed.

As indicated, with ClubV1, your competition committee need to setup a separate competition for each day, and then run an "aggregate print" to produce a single result. Otherwise ClubV1 stamps all scores with the date of competition (the first day), regardless of when they are played or entered on the system. The alternative is to manually adjust all scores on WHS before midnight each day to reflect the correct date of play.

I don't know how something like this goes unnoticed/unchecked by competition and handicap committees for (presumably) over 2 yeyears.

I do. There will be plenty of people on Committees who simply don't look at the finer details, and will just assume things are running as they should, as the Competition Results are as expected.

How many people on Committee truly evaluate the PCC for every comp, or even notice that the PCC was already set for players before midnight? Given that PCC has been one of the dark arts with WHS, it is easy to see how some have missed it. I'm sure the authorities and ISVs become aware at some point, buy is this clearly communicated back to clubs who are unaware. Or do clubs just have to discover these things themselves?

 

[wjemather]

I do. There will be plenty of people on Committees who simply don't look at the finer details, and will just assume things are running as they should, as the Competition Results are as expected.

How many people on Committee truly evaluate the PCC for every comp, or even notice that the PCC was already set for players before midnight? Given that PCC has been one of the dark arts with WHS, it is easy to see how some have missed it. I'm sure the authorities and ISVs become aware at some point, buy is this clearly communicated back to clubs who are unaware. Or do clubs just have to discover these things themselves?

Anyone paying even the slightest attention to what they're doing would catch this straight away while performing basic routine tasks. The "Score Listing By Day" report makes it utterly impossible to miss (in fact, the summary box gives the game away before even running a report). Here's a clip of our report for illustration:


Instead of Friday (8), Saturday (79), Sunday (24); @Backsticks club report would show Friday (111), Saturday (0), Sunday (0) [assuming no other comps or gp scores, but even then it's glaringly obvious].

This desire to blame authorities (or software providers) for abject failures at club/committee level is not helpful.

 

[Swango1980]

Anyone paying even the slightest attention to what they're doing would catch this straight away while performing basic routine tasks. The "Score Listing By Day" report makes it utterly impossible to miss (in fact, the summary box gives the game away before even running a report). Here's a clip of our report for illustration:

View attachment 48789
Instead of Friday (8), Saturday (79), Sunday (24); @Backsticks club report would show Friday (111), Saturday (0), Sunday (0) [assuming no other comps or gp scores, but even then it's glaringly obvious].

This desire to blame authorities (or software providers) for abject failures at club/committee level is not helpful.

It also isn't helpful to blame Committees when the software is less than ideal.

Presumably at Backsticks club they've set up the competition on the system logically? The club want to set up a single competition, and believe they are doing just that. But, as you say, the ISVs are unable to facilitate an alternate day comp as a single comp. Therefore, an alternative method is required, which may appear completely illogical to some. That is not ideal, and an issue with the software that could surely be improved?

I've no idea about the performance of the Committee at Backsticks club. But, in his clubs case, they've clearly missed it. Maybe they have seen the report above you suggest, maybe not? If they have, maybe they believe that it is a flaw in the system that cannot be avoided, for alternate day comps. Maybe they've not recognised the importance that the rounds played must be on the correct day, in regards to PCC. Or that they found PCC rarely changed anyway, and so were not prompted to investigate further. I bet there are many more clubs like Backsticks club that have done the same, it is just that Backsticks has highlighted the issue in here.

 

[Backsticks]

A few points.

While I dont really know any of our hc committee personally, I would think them responsible, capable, and do put time into running our hcs. I think a charge of lack of knowledge or effort to run things, would be unfair. Who is really running daily reports ?

This has been happening since the beginning of WHS. It puzzled me from the start, without putting too much thought into it, and just assumed all was correct and it was my lack of knowledge of whs that had me unable to explain it.

I just realised the pattern recently, and so was just closing the loop on this oddity, knowing I had brought it up here without getting to the bottom of it at the time.

The bottom line probably doesnt matter : its only 7 or 8 comps through the season. And only a smattering will have a pcc, and fewer still will have a pcc on the weekend days different to the Friday. And then probably only by a shot. So overall effect on handicaps minimal to nil. Was happy just to solve the puzzle.

 

[wjemather]

A few points.

While I dont really know any of our hc committee personally, I would think them responsible, capable, and do put time into running our hcs. I think a charge of lack of knowledge or effort to run things, would be unfair. Who is really running daily reports ?

This has been happening since the beginning of WHS. It puzzled me from the start, without putting too much thought into it, and just assumed all was correct and it was my lack of knowledge of whs that had me unable to explain it.

I just realised the pattern recently, and so was just closing the loop on this oddity, knowing I had brought it up here without getting to the bottom of it at the time.

The bottom line probably doesnt matter : its only 7 or 8 comps through the season. And only a smattering will have a pcc, and fewer still will have a pcc on the weekend days different to the Friday. And then probably only by a shot. So overall effect on handicaps minimal to nil. Was happy just to solve the puzzle.

Spotting this doesn't require looking at reports on a daily, or even weekly, basis - as you can see above, daily totals for 2 weeks are displayed in summary box. It's virtually impossible to miss this for 2+ years (or worse - notice it without following it up) when it happens every 2/3 weeks unless there is a knowledge, diligence or competence issue.

Of course it matters; and it doesn't only affect PCC. It can alter the order in which scores are entered for handicapping, e.g. if other scores are submitted Fri/Sat before playing the comp on Sun (which then show as Fri on WHS).