Opponent knocks my ball out of tree

[ntommo]

In a doubles match I hit my 2nd shot into a tree and it doesn’t come out. We approach the tree and my opponent throws a club at a ball he can see and knocks it out and it is my ball. How do we proceed? Does my opponent receive a penalty, do I take penalty drop directly below where my ball was in the tree. I’m not sure on this one, any ideas

 

[Colin L]

Your opponent gets one penalty stroke Rule 9.5. You replace your ball but in this situation I’d say you could choose to take penalty relief without doing so, the reference point being as you said directly below where the ball was in the tree.

 

[ntommo]

Thanks, wasn’t sure with it being in tree

 

[jim8flog]

Your opponent gets one penalty stroke Rule 9.5.

What about

• At the player’s request.

Exception 3 – Same Exceptions as for the Player: There is no penalty when the opponent accidentally causes the ball to move while taking any of the actions covered by Exceptions 2, 3 or 4 in Rule 9.4b.

9.4b
Exception 2 – Accidental Movement Before Ball Is Found: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move while trying to find or identify it (see Rule 7.4).

 

[ntommo]

It was a deliberate action by the opponent

 

[Swango1980]

What about

• At the player’s request.

Exception 3 – Same Exceptions as for the Player: There is no penalty when the opponent accidentally causes the ball to move while taking any of the actions covered by Exceptions 2, 3 or 4 in Rule 9.4b.

9.4b
Exception 2 – Accidental Movement Before Ball Is Found: There is no penalty when the player accidentally causes the ball to move while trying to find or identify it (see Rule 7.4).

Did the opponent accidentally throw his club at the tree?

 

[salfordlad]

On the OP information, it seems clear that the ball could not be identified from the ground and was well out of reach. If that is correct, I'm in the no penalty camp for the opponent.

The key issue is Interpretation 7.4/2. Accidental movement of a ball when seeking to find or identify it is not a penalty providing the actions taken are reasonable, and reasonable action is defined to include actions that are likely to reveal the ball location by moving it, for example shaking a tree and hoping to dislodge a ball. Tossing a club, shoe or beer bottle (drink it first) for the same purpose, likewise, is a permitted way to get the ball to identify it. That is, in this special situation the limitation on "accidental" is widened to include deliberate movement.

And to complete the circle: 9.5 makes clear there is no penalty for an opponent that moves the player's ball if the player was permitted to move it under the 9.4b exceptions (other than Exc1); and 9.4b Exc 2 points us back to rule 7.4's permissions.

So no penalty for the opponent. Player now proceeds under the rules: replace and play (impossible on the information provided) or proceed with an unplayable (reference point for BOL or lateral relief is on ground vertically below ball's position in the tree).

 

[Colin L]

On the OP information, it seems clear that the ball could not be identified from the ground and was well out of reach. If that is correct, I'm in the no penalty camp for the opponent.

The key issue is Interpretation 7.4/2. Accidental movement of a ball when seeking to find or identify it is not a penalty providing the actions taken are reasonable, and reasonable action is defined to include actions that are likely to reveal the ball location by moving it, for example shaking a tree and hoping to dislodge a ball. Tossing a club, shoe or beer bottle (drink it first) for the same purpose, likewise, is a permitted way to get the ball to identify it. That is, in this special situation the limitation on "accidental" is widened to include deliberate movement.

And to complete the circle: 9.5 makes clear there is no penalty for an opponent that moves the player's ball if the player was permitted to move it under the 9.4b exceptions (other than Exc1); and 9.4b Exc 2 points us back to rule 7.4's permissions.

So no penalty for the opponent. Player now proceeds under the rules: replace and play (impossible on the information provided) or proceed with an unplayable (reference point for BOL or lateral relief is on ground vertically below ball's position in the tree).

All of which is dependent upon information which the OP did not give. We have only the raw fact that his opponent chucked his club at and moved a ball which turned out to be the player's. Without the player's sanction, that gets a penalty. But if the presumed information is correct then certainly there is no penalty.

 

[salfordlad]

All of which is dependent upon information which the OP did not give. We have only the raw fact that his opponent chucked his club at and moved a ball which turned out to be the player's. Without the player's sanction, that gets a penalty. But if the presumed information is correct then certainly there is no penalty.

I think the only critical issue in this interesting scenario is that the ball in the tree could not be identified where it had come to rest. I don't think the player needs to approve the opponent tossing the club or action like tree shaking. An opponent is entitled to search for a player's ball, and 7.4/2 applies to this search process, deliberately moving a ball is reasonable in this situation. IMO, the opponent is entitled to protect his own interest, which could include ensuring the player does S&D if the tree ball proves not to be the player's.

 

[jim8flog]

To quote Salford lads explanation

7.4/2 – Player Attempts to Dislodge Ball in Tree or Step on Ball in Tall Grass During search

If a ball is accidentally moved when a player is trying to find or identify it, Rule 7.4 applies, and the ball must be replaced on the estimated spot without penalty.

This Rule also applies in situations when the player is attempting to find the ball and takes reasonable actions that are likely to reveal the ball’s location by moving it.

Example of these reasonable actions include when the player:

• Believes his or her ball has come to rest in a tree and shakes the tree hoping to dislodge and find the ball, or

 

[KenL]

Your opponent gets one penalty stroke Rule 9.5. You replace your ball but in this situation I’d say you could choose to take penalty relief without doing so, the reference point being as you said directly below where the ball was in the tree.

That sounds a bit of a silly one to me.

Did the player know who's ball it was?