One day only in my lifetime I wish to lose

I struggled to warm to AVB, I think he was weak.

Our biggest problem is Buck & Gourlay being nodding dogs to RA, we need some teethe on the board IMO.
 
Fish said:
Cheeky bugger, I worked hard on that, and this....



Nope, incorrect! As I stated in my post, when looking at 5 year blocks over 15 years the variable is quite small in percentage terms. Yes there is the odd season of a wealth of purchases but that is offset by a minimal spend the following year/s. That's what all businesses do at times which is what football has now become, big business, as it invests not only in the present but for the future also.

Over 15 years and in blocks of 5, Chelsea spent only 1m more than Liverpool over that furthest period but for 4 years of that block L'Pool spent many millions more, +14m, +5m, +10m and then +4m! In that same block though Man united spent nearly twice what both teams did (+50m)!

The middle block of 5 years did see some major spending at times by Chelsea but they then spent virtually nothing the following year/s at times but again L'pool spent double (+30m & +16m) what Chelsea did twice within that block of 5.

In the most recent block of 5 years Chelsea have spent overall only 20% more than L'pool and again 2 years within that block L'pool spent 37 & 39% (+13m & +15m) more than Chelsea!

The average percentage spend between Chelsea & L'pool over the last 15 years is only 32% and in the last 5 years was only 20%. Transfer that amount to honours won within that period and the commercial growth they achieved and extra income they bring in due to those successes and visibility.......its money well spent.

Was Liverpool's well spent? I'd say no, because your gate money has decreased even though you played the same amount of games at home when you swapped the Champions league for Europa and that meant less attendances at reduced ticket prices and loss of commercial revenue which has a direct relationship and of course that also then means a huge loss of broadcasting revenue!

Then to not qualify for a European competition at all cost your club an estimated 48-55m!

However, Chelsea's Broadcasting revenue increased by 18% to £101.4m due to successful Champions League campaigns delivering increased UEFA distributions and increased Premier League payments.

If you don't improve on the pitch and don't qualify for the Champions League you will continue to slide down the World Money League which has seen Chelsea rise to 6th and Liverpool fall to 9th.

Chelsea's match day revenue is 67.5m against L'pools 40.9m, broadcasting revenue for Chelsea is 101.4m against L'pools 65.3m but, Chelsea's commercial revenue is only 56.7m against 77.4m of L'pools but Chelsea has increased its commercial position by no less than 12% each year so its going in the right direction, L'pools however is falling.

The only thing that will underpin your revenue currently and give you much needed cash-flow is the new shirt deal and various sponsorships because what you have spent on players, which is on a par with Manchester United over the last 15 years (variable 30M), has not been returned on the pitch or in the trophy cabinet hence your income is dropping, if that continues, its a downward spiral and you'll need your history to stay attractive to investors!
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OK, I'll give you, you didn't copy and paste it - maybe just the Arsenal list.

Firstly, what is the figures for 10 years, not 15 (pre-abramovich).

Secondly, although not absolute science the nett figures, give more of the story.

If Chelsea sign 25 x £ 20 mill players they will have a very good squad.

If Liverpool sign 10 x £ 30 mill players they wont, maybe on a certain day, but not overall. Especially, if you have to sell 5 x £20 mill players to finance most of it.Football more so than ever is a squad game, and a squad of 25 players. Especially, if Rafa is your manager. :)

Also, are you just looking at investment as just being in the team?

If Liverpool have also spent money on the ground, the training ground, the academy, out of club funds, this takes away from the playing squad. If RA has paid for all these out of his back pocket, it does not affect squad building.

I agree with the other points overall, as yes, if your not in champ league,sponsors will not back you as much. No doubt Chelsea are on the up, Liverpool on the down (as such). However, even with no champs league for about 4 years, our income has increased due to sponsorship deals being more in number, as well as in price. Ayre has done a very good job on this side.

As Chelsea has increased their worldwide exposure, theirs will increase, due to glory hunters, more exposure etc.

Was Liverpool's well spent - hell no. But if you can only make 2 10-20 mill signings a year, chances are less likely. If Chelsea sign 6 10-20 mill players, chances have increased - 1 or 2 duds wont affect the 4 succesful ones.

Nett spend is the key, but we have signed some shocking players over the years, of that there is no doubt.

You have also had THE most talented managers over the last 10 years (before they come to Chelsea) also, you just ruined some of them.
 
Liverbirdie said:
As Chelsea has increased their worldwide exposure, theirs will increase, due to glory hunters, more exposure etc.
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And all of your support was born within the sight of the Liver building? Come on, you've got as many, if not more, than most. Cornwall seems to be a particular hot bed.

As regards the previous money point, it wasn't intended to suggest that your success was all money orientated, you certainly had some good managers, but being able to pay the best wages doesn't hurt. I fully accept the point that to some extent everybody buys the title, but that to a degree applies to everybody. Possibly more to us at the moment because it was the only way to bridge the gap quickly, but as the other measures kick in and hopefully we bring more youth through less so. There seems to be a particular bitterness in this respect from Liverpool fans. Were you expecting the new American owners to rival Abramovich in the funding department?

Can't argue that we haven't made the best use of the managerial talent that we have had, wouldn't agree that we've ruined them though.
 
Blue in Munich said:
And all of your support was born within the sight of the Liver building? Come on, you've got as many, if not more, than most. Cornwall seems to be a particular hot bed.

As regards the previous money point, it wasn't intended to suggest that your success was all money orientated, you certainly had some good managers, but being able to pay the best wages doesn't hurt. I fully accept the point that to some extent everybody buys the title, but that to a degree applies to everybody. Possibly more to us at the moment because it was the only way to bridge the gap quickly, but as the other measures kick in and hopefully we bring more youth through less so. There seems to be a particular bitterness in this respect from Liverpool fans. Were you expecting the new American owners to rival Abramovich in the funding department?

Can't argue that we haven't made the best use of the managerial talent that we have had, wouldn't agree that we've ruined them though.
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Can't people move anymore and still support the same team?

I wasn't born in Liverpool but that besides the point. I started supporting LFC when my dad tried to make me support ManU and I wanted to get up his nose so picked their biggest rivals. I was a lovely child!


The new bunch of American owners never promised massive spending they have always said they want the club to support itself and be sustainable. This is being worked towards from every angle and in time will be good for the club. We have had far too many people with their hands in the cookie jar in the past and it's going to take time to rectify this.
 
Andy808 said:
Can't people move anymore and still support the same team?

I wasn't born in Liverpool but that besides the point. I started supporting LFC when my dad tried to make me support ManU and I wanted to get up his nose so picked their biggest rivals. I was a lovely child!


The new bunch of American owners never promised massive spending they have always said they want the club to support itself and be sustainable. This is being worked towards from every angle and in time will be good for the club. We have had far too many people with their hands in the cookie jar in the past and it's going to take time to rectify this.
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Of course they can move and support the same club, but from the number of shirts I've seen when I've been down there it wasn't a move it was an exodus. Or a hell of a lot of glory hunters; take your pick. I tend to think glory hunter when people attach themselves to a successful team to which they have no other affiliation, but maybe that's just my suspicious nature. There may be many other reasons why people choose a certain club, as you have demonstrated.

I don't believe I said that the new owners had promised to spend a fortune, just that I felt there was a sense of disappointment among some fans that they hadn't. It must be particularly galling to those fans that having accused certain rivals of being rent boys & selling their backsides to a foreigner, their own club does the same and for much less effect.
 
Liverbirdie, re the ticket prices, commentator on the Toon game reckons it was £15 adults, £5 kids for tonight's game. maybe we are being ripped off in London. The ones that went to Prague certainly were for the performance they got.
 
Blue in Munich said:
And all of your support was born within the sight of the Liver building? Come on, you've got as many, if not more, than most. Cornwall seems to be a particular hot bed.

As regards the previous money point, it wasn't intended to suggest that your success was all money orientated, you certainly had some good managers, but being able to pay the best wages doesn't hurt. I fully accept the point that to some extent everybody buys the title, but that to a degree applies to everybody. Possibly more to us at the moment because it was the only way to bridge the gap quickly, but as the other measures kick in and hopefully we bring more youth through less so. There seems to be a particular bitterness in this respect from Liverpool fans. Were you expecting the new American owners to rival Abramovich in the funding department?

Can't argue that we haven't made the best use of the managerial talent that we have had, wouldn't agree that we've ruined them though.
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Ha - fell into my trap - how can they be glory hunters, if we don't have glory anymore?

Only joking. Yes, LFC have a lot of supporters without any familial/local link. The difference I would say is that despite LFC not having it's best 20 years, at least 95% of them have stayed loyal. Our attendances are bigger now than in the glory years.

City and Chelsea will get increasing supporters over the next 10 years, if they carry on spending what they have (and of course winning trophies).

I honestly don't think LFC's worst critics would say we "bought" all them trophies in the 60's-80's. Also when the 2nd set of yanks come in we were happy, as we didn't want a sugar daddy coming in and blowing everyone out of the water, finance wise. We wanted someone to help build or increase the stadium capacity so we could try to do it through our own means, albeit with some help.

No matter how City and Chelsea fans dress it up, such uber spending, taints the success, and apart from the new supporters that "attach" themselves to the club, most neutrals hate fairly instant success, all being down to money. It is a British trait.

Don't get me wrong, they also don't want the same clique of LFC, MUFC,Arsenal winning everything either, and most clubs like Chelsea and City needed an uber-spend to catapult them into that stratosphere, but just don't expect any neutrals to love you for it.

I feel that the "soul" of our club is still intact. The yanks have been letting kids in all year for the Europa games for a fiver. They seem to buy into a lot of the ethos of our club, although they aren't perfect either.

I had a lot of respect for Chelsea and their fans throughout the eighties. I don't know how old you are (Fish looks ancient) and if you were following Chelsea in the 80's - do you feel your club has even a smidgeon of that soul anymore? Only you can answer that.

Fish, you said:-In 2 of those factors (match day & broadcasting) Liverpool are losing a lot of revenue (150m+) and without success on the pitch it will fall further.

If our turnover is only 184M (your figures), how can we have lost 150Mill, or are you talking over 4-5 seasons. Our sponsorship deals have vastly increased in the last 2-3 years,also.
 
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Liverbirdie said:
Fish, you said:-In 2 of those factors (match day & broadcasting) Liverpool are losing a lot of revenue (150m+) and without success on the pitch it will fall further.

If our turnover is only 184M (your figures), how can we have lost 150Mill, or are you talking over 4-5 seasons. Our sponsorship deals have vastly increased in the last 2-3 years,also.
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You are losing "out" on 150m+ by not competing in Europe (CL) and top premiership positions, the handouts are huge along with broadcasting and with being in those positions you can then maintain attendances and ticket prices, which you can't for Europa. Top 3 positions in the league and getting to quarters at least in Cl's would yield no less than an additional 100m income your not getting now.

As you said in an earlier post, imagine if you were, well to do that you need to spend quite a bit on the "right" players and the rest comes along naturally. Clubs that just balanced the books like Norwich and Villa for years won what in those times? Great business model for the directors and shareholders but the fans were frustrated, can't see you wanting to be in that mould?

Your not cash rich so to change what's going on on the pitch, someone has got to put their hand in their pocket!
 
Liverbirdie said:
I had a lot of respect for Chelsea and their fans throughout the eighties. I don't know how old you are (Fish looks ancient) and if you were following Chelsea in the 80's - do you feel your club has even a smidgeon of that soul anymore? Only you can answer that.
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I'm 50, started going regularly in the late 70's, in the days when the highlight of the season was to turn you over in the 3rd round of the FA Cup :) only to fall foul of Oldham/Barnsley/Huddersfield or similar in the 4th round :mad: I feel that the soul that was present then is still present in those guys of that era who still go today. However the two things that have changed considerably is that the soul you mention is no longer reciprocated in the management of the club; we would sometimes be passed in the low rent hire Transit minibus by Ken Bates Roller, a few toots on the horn and you'd always get an acknowledgement, can't ever see Roman doing that. The other thing that has changed is that a lot of the JCL's that are there have known nothing but success, which is not good.

When I first started going you went to be with your mates, to watch the match, hopefully be entertained and win if you were lucky. It was about the experience and silverware was a bonus. We hadn't picked our club, our club had picked us (I come from a Battersea family) and you played the hand you'd been dealt. On the 17th of May 1997, we didn't think it got any better, the dream finally became reality. Somewhere between now and then, hope and dreams became expectation and demands, and the experience and the pleasure I derive from it diminished as a result. The soul is still there, but it is fighting a losing battle, and I'm not sure we're not the only ones who are suffering as the world in general changes.
 
+1

I'm "slightly" older ;) and echo those sentiments above and feel the same.

I'm proper old school from Greenwich but mainly brought up in West Hampstead. First game allowed to go on my own was 1972 but went regularly before with my Dad. Benches with my dad but Shed in the 80's, missed quite a few games at times due to serving around the world but always made up for it when I got back with interest.

That first game on my own was a birthday present and against Dirty Leeds at home and we won 4-nil :) My first proper away game a few years later (I had been to Orient, Millwall, Foolham, Charlton) was Plymouth in a transit with "the lads", we won 3-2 :)

Still got a season ticket (MHL) which my mates use in a pool and money goes into my account for big away games here and in Europe away although I attend prem & cup away games mid-week at times. Not a fan of home games any more and well known across all local pubs across the country at grounds, in Liverpool the girls know me in the Arkle, Cabbage Hall, Punch & Judy and a few others. Always stop over when playing L'pool at the Ibis who got to know me also opposite Albert Docks.

Love when we draw a lower division club in cups as it brings back the memories, Preston, Wolves, Cardiff, Burnley, Coventry lol.

My addiction to golf has got in the way now though to be a regular but my passion for them will always be there.
 
+10 (years)

I started going on my own to the away games, with school mates around 1983.

Barnsley (FA cup), Sheffield Wed, Coventry and Stoke away when your only 13 is moody,shady and exhilirating. I also went to the milk cup final replay at Man city's ground when only 13 (blagged me dad, I was going with mates and one of their dads).

Fish quote:- Not a fan of home games any more and well known across all local pubs across the country at grounds, in Liverpool the girls know me in the Arkle, Cabbage Hall, Punch & Judy and a few others. Always stop over when playing L'pool at the Ibis who got to know me also opposite Albert Docks.


- Don't you go any of the decent pubs. :)

Same here, generally been 10 away games a season for the last 10 years or so(did the 42 plus all the cup in 1989), as gave up on London and anywhere over 3 hours travel, years ago so I could afford the European games instead. Don't get me wrong if we drew Orient, Brentford,Plymouth in the FA cup I'd be there like a shot, as I haven't been to their grounds. Currently about 22 short of the 92.

I've only been to Oldham away this season, again the golf is more attractive than the football (especially as an LFC fan) these days. I'd rather play Hillside than go to Middlesborough away (for the 18th time) again as an example. I've still got my season ticket, but even miss 1-2 home games a season now, for holidays,whereas hadn't missed a home game previously from 1983 until about 2004.

BlueinMunich - shame your not coming up with Fish, for the banter.

OK we all have our rivalries, opinions, but enjoyed the conversation on here a lot.

Did I mention I don't have my own business. :)
 
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Liverbirdie said:
BlueinMunich - shame your not coming up with Fish, for the banter.

OK we all have our rivalries, opinions, but enjoyed the conversation on here a lot.
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Another time maybe, few family bits to sort out at the moment, hence the late response.

Likewise enjoyed the conversation, have a good time at West Lancs, don't be too hard on him Fish....:)

Not sent from my Blackberry whilst not running my own business:D
 
Blue in Munich said:
Another time maybe, few family bits to sort out at the moment, hence the late response.

Likewise enjoyed the conversation, have a good time at West Lancs, don't be too hard on him Fish....:)

Not sent from my Blackberry whilst not running my own business:D
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Love it, no probs.

Anyway, time for you horlicks,old timer. :)
 
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