Official WHS Survey

[PaulMdj]

That the 18 is now scoring an average of 4 shots better. The genuine scratch player is scoring no better.

Note the word GENUINE before both.

The 18 is 18 and the scratch is scratch.

 

[PaulMdj]

Guys....I did say I had a chance, not that I would win, stop spinning it please.

You still have a chance!

 

[PaulMdj]

It is true when we take competing as having a chance of winning a typical club competition. This is openly recognised by WHS, and part of the design.
In a one off match, the low man has a chance of actually winning, sure. This is why WHS suits the US golf culture of casual matches.

But averages are irrelevant when speaking of a typical UK stableford competition that is a common golf club tradition for us. Its about having a chance to WIN.

Telling the low golfer that on average he will beat a 20hc - in a field of 100 golfers you will average 25th, but the 20 hc will average 60th ! So you are beating him more often than he beats you ! Oh by the way, you will never be first. But on average you will place better, so its fine ! - is not good.

Higher handicappers cannot be scoring 5.5 shots closer to low golfers than before without killing the chances of the low hc. 5.5 shots ! There is the data that backs up exactly the anecdotes. They had some chance before. Now they have none. Of course they are saying there is no point competing under WHS.

On the issue of players leaving the game, I dont think there is any chance of that. They will continue to play golf. But that doesnt excuse EG doing nothing to restore a better parity back closer to the one that worked. Simply on grounds of fairness.
EG might prefer if they quit they game in a way - it would take the complaining off the stage.

Just gone through our results, 21 Ind Stroke/Stab comps 01 May - 31 Oct.

Course is Par 70

2 winners with over 25 handicaps, nett 58 & 59

4 Winners between 24-19

10 winners between 10-18

5 winners 9-+1,
Those were:
9 - 41pts

3 - 65

8 - 67

0 - 65

8 - 42pts

Our results really don’t back up what you are saying about low cappers having no chance.

 

[AussieKB]

4BBB Open last weekend, winner 51 points, runner up 48 points,
how many birdies and eagles do two single figure guys need to make.

 

[PaulMdj]

4BBB Open last weekend, winner 51 points, runner up 48 points,
how many birdies and eagles do two single figure guys need to make.

Again, another anecdote, we had a 4BBB comp won by a guy off +3 and his partner off 18, guess how many points they threw together?

45 points and the plus 3 was on the card 14 times, 5 Birdies and an Eagle, the 18 handicapper had 1 Birdie.

+3 handicapper got given a Nett 63 and a cut from +3 to +3.5

They won it on countback from 2 other teams playing off 10 & 15 and +1 & 8.
The 2 single figure guys had 5 birdies between them.

These scores happen, it proves nothing.

 

[AussieKB]

45 points to 51 points......another 6 birdies needed.

and we have had this system for years.

 

[Dunesman]

Note the word GENUINE before both.

The 18 is 18 and the scratch is scratch.

Was noted, and the point remains.
The genuine 18 scores 4 shots or so better under WHS than the old syatem, the genuine scratch scores the same.

 

[PaulMdj]

Was noted, and the point remains.
The genuine 18 scores 4 shots or so better under WHS than the old syatem, the genuine scratch scores the same.

Initially I’ll accept the mid range handicaps benefitted when WHS was inteoduced, but it’s been in place longer enough now that it has settled down, and anyone playing regular, honest golf is playing to their actual handicap.

 

[Dunesman]

Initially I’ll accept the mid range handicaps benefitted when WHS was inteoduced, but it’s been in place longer enough now that it has settled down, and anyone playing regular, honest golf is playing to their actual handicap.

Its nothing to do with settling down.
An actual 18 will now score better than an actual 18 scored pre WHS, as wjemather has shown.

 

[wjemather]

4BBB Open last weekend, winner 51 points, runner up 48 points,
how many birdies and eagles do two single figure guys need to make.

My mate and I (playing off 2 and 5) scored 49 points a couple of months ago. We had 10 birdies between us, never on the same hole; and 2 counting bogeys. Individually we both scored less than 40 points.
It's simply untrue to say 50 or 51 points is unattainable for a pair of low handicappers.

 

[PaulMdj]

Its nothing to do with settling down.
An actual 18 will now score better than an actual 18 scored pre WHS, as wjemather has shown.

I think, like he replied to you on this, you’ve missed the point of what he posted and it was from 1 source.

There are cheats out there abusing the system, WHS needs tweaking to try and reduce that, but stating low handicappers now have no chance in comps is incorrect.

 

[wjemather]

Its nothing to do with settling down.
An actual 18 will now score better than an actual 18 scored pre WHS, as wjemather has shown.

Which only demonstrates how great an advantage the low handicapper had previously.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Guys....I did say I had a chance, not that I would win, stop spinning it please.

The points have already been made to explain your views, mine and several others. The same questions keep coming from the same posters. Relentless. WHS is a nonsense from a competitive perspective, we've already established that. No need to get sucked in again.

 

[PaulMdj]

The points have already been made to explain your views, mine and several others. The same questions keep coming from the same posters. Relentless. WHS is a nonsense from a competitive perspective, we've already established that. No need to get sucked in again.

And yet time and time again you’ve been shown evidence of low and scratch handicappers being competitive.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

And yet time and time again you’ve been shown evidence of low and scratch handicappers being competitive.

Deluded

 

[wjemather]

The points have already been made to explain your views, mine and several others. The same questions keep coming from the same posters. Relentless. WHS is a nonsense from a competitive perspective, we've already established that. No need to get sucked in again.

Perhaps that's because questions for evidence keep being answered with anecdotes and feelings.

As demonstrated, contrary anecdotes and feelings can easily be found.

 

[PaulMdj]

Deluded

I’ve just given you 5 results out of 21 comps at my place, very happy to email you the full results to prove it.

Quite disappointing the best you can come up with is one word, which unfortunately looks more and more likely to fit yourself.

 

[Deleted member 36483]

Perhaps that's because questions for evidence keep being answered with anecdotes and feelings.

As demonstrated, contrary anecdotes and feelings can easily be found.

I'm not a professional forum poster. I hadn't quite realised the dedication of some of you to this forum, thousands of posts. I've already spent too much time trying to make a point I feel needs to be made. I'm not here to win an argument. You're all entitled to your views but I do think some people just like to wind up and get attention. Good luck

 

[PaulMdj]

I'm not a professional forum poster. I hadn't quite realised the dedication of some of you to this forum, thousands of posts. I've already spent too much time trying to make a point I feel needs to be made. I'm not here to win an argument. You're all entitled to your views but I do think some people just like to wind up and get attention. Good luck

Another disappointing post, I didn’t realise we were meant to just accept your opinions or feelings

It’s a forum, people debate, disagree, try and educate each other.

All you’re doing is stamping your feet, making personal comments, arguing and insulting people’s intelligence by accussing them of being on a wind up.

It’s at this point you lose credibility, you’ve been provided with facts, asked questions, plenty have admitted WHS is not perfect, however, you seem to want everyone to simply aacept what you’re saying at face value with no hard evidence.

Enjoy your Golf.

 

[Dunesman]

Which only demonstrates how great an advantage the low handicapper had previously.

I think thats a little disingenuous. Or is it meant in jest ?
Even if low hcs has some advantage, in terms of wins it was minor or negligible. Certainly nothing even close to 5 shots. But is does give the answer does it not. This is the difference roughly, that is needed to level the field. That the average score is so different only superficially indicates an unfairness. That difference I guess has come both from a stretching of the spectrum by WHS - low hcs are a little lower, high hcs a little higher - and, the variability of the higher handicaps.
The solution would appear to be quite evident.