Official WHS Survey

[IanMac]

Part of your question asked about selection of elite amateurs. If elite amateurs are being selected for anything based on their performance in handicap golf competitions then I would suggest they aren't that elite.

I'm talking about balloting out based on handicap. Players are abusing the WHS to give themselves artificially low handicaps in order to get through the ballots.

 

[Golfloveruk]

Explain that statement please. What is universal experience? I do realise that not everyone has had exactly the same golf experience as is obviously the case between RichA and myself.

I'm just not sure how that is relevant. We are, I hope, debating whether WHS is fit for purpose and my view is that it is not. Obviously that is based on my experience. I've been playing club golf for 47 years. I've played scratch opens. I've played, and continue to play, inter club competitions and I obviously play trophy competitions. My experience suggests to me that WHS is having a detrimental effect on these competitive aspects of golf. I've tried to give the reasons for that and now I'm getting pushback from various posters. Please explain your experience and how you think WHS has affected it, good or bad.

In other words, try and change my mind.

I’ve no intention of trying to change your mind.

You think your experience make you right. Whether you’ve played scratch opens or inter club comps is irrelevant, it certainly doesn’t add any weight to your argument.

The more someone goes on about how long they have played and done this and that, the more I dismiss them as someone who just doesn’t like change.

I’ve only the 25 years experience, I’ve also played in scratch opens, I’ve won leagues, been on committees. I won the club match play, a monthly medal and a stableford this year off low single figures blah blah blah and so on. It doesn’t mean my opinion if more valid.

My experience does not reflect yours, and most people I know do not share your opinion.

As has already been said, it’s just a loud minority making noise. I would be extremely surprised if any major changes were made to WHS.

 

[Golfloveruk]

I'm talking about balloting out based on handicap. Players are abusing the WHS handicap system to give themselves artificially low handicaps in order to get through the ballots.

Fixed that for you. It was ever thus!

 

[IanM]

Agreed. Was there a problem before WHS? Did we have these different views on the handicap system?

I've only played club golf since the 90s.

I remember folk moaning about handicap protection, increases being too slow, bandits avoiding medals in order to do well on matchplay or maintain a low handicap. . So, yes, I think folk did have different views, but largely folk were used to it, so it wasn't such a hot potato.

BUT.... it only takes a change to really shake things up. The old system immediately becomes , "the good old days!!"

This is true of every walk of life. Eg VAR in football!! Everyone moaned about refs before, now they are moaning about a new set of variables!! Only louder!

I've said my piece on whs plenty of times. There's good and bad to be found. But it's a while since I've heard anything new!!

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Good grief no. I don't care enough; I just play recreational golf with my friends, all of whom seem to like WHS. I quite like it and find most of the arguments against it to be a bit self-serving.
I can't compare it to the previous system anyway because the first 30 years of my golfing life didn't involve club membership or a handicap.

Wow.

So we're arguing about how WHS is bad for competitions, yet you and the folks you're quoting don't actually play competitions at all.

You've also no experience of UHS, so how can you compare?

And yous caused me of not being open to argument
Good grief man

 

[IanMac]

Fixed that for you. It was ever thus!

Not at the low end my friend. Cat 1 weren't allowed to do general play cards.

 

[doublebogey7]

Maybe you saw an earlier message from me linking to a Golf Ireland site explaining how they are having to adapt the system to manage interclub competitions. It's far from a relatively small number of players who aren't happy with the current system. Hence the survey I would think.

Just read it and it makes very little sense to me. Would love to know what it is attempting to achieve, perhaps you could explain in the context of this debate.

 

[rulefan]

Not at the low end my friend. Cat 1 weren't allowed to do general play cards.

Not so. In the last few years of UHS, they were.

 

[doublebogey7]

A poll of forum posters is not going to prove diddly squat. Pinch of salt either way. Most of the Golf Monthly forum users seem to be more interested in posting about football.

What's useful on here is to make a point and have it debated. Unfortunately there are many who want to take the debate off the point.

Some think WHS is good and some don't, great.

I hope I've done my best to explain why I think it's not good and offer some explanation as to where the issues lie. I appreciate a counter argument if it contains some reasoning that educates me and helps me to see another angle.

That is patently untrue, there are just two threads on football and hundreds on all different aspects of Golf. Perhaps the reason their not posting on here, is because they are content and are board with viewing the same arguments being fought over and over again.

 

[rulie]

That is patently untrue, there are just two threads on football and hundreds on all different aspects of Golf. Perhaps the reason their not posting on here, is because they are content and are board with viewing the same arguments being fought over and over again.

By the same few posters.
Might be time to end this thread?

 

[RichA]

Wow.

So we're arguing about how WHS is bad for competitions, yet you and the folks you're quoting don't actually play competitions at all.

You've also no experience of UHD, so how can you compare?

And yous caused me of not being open to argument
Good grief man

I played 7 comps this year but largely just play socially.
Most of my pals do play in comps but our club has about 2 per week. I have more than just a couple of friends. We don't only play together all the time. That would be weird.
All this is largely irrelevant because I have a handicap, am a golf club member and am entitled to an opinion.
WHS is perhaps popular with golfers who do not have traditional memberships of traditional golf clubs. Perhaps that's why you don't like it. But it's progress.
And I haven't compared WHS to its predecessor. Never played it. Never made a comparison.

Like I said earlier, I occasionally scan and post on this thread and feel like most contributors disagree with you, but they don't bother hanging around because you can't entertain a sensible conversation.
It's all false conjecture and wild exaggeration to make your points.

 

[Golfloveruk]

Not at the low end my friend. Cat 1 weren't allowed to do general play cards.

Never did they were. You don’t need to put in general play cards to manipulate a handicap.

 

[Backache]

Never did they were. You don’t need to put in general play cards to manipulate a handicap.

Indeed you don't, but it makes it an awful lot easier

 

[AussieKB]

Sorry I didn't see where you mentioned you were talkiing about an 18 handicapper. NDB effects a scratch players handicap in the same way so I still fail to see your point.

I doubt whether there will be any major changes to WHS following this survey as I suspect most players around the world who are used to a very similar system are content. I relaticely small but vocal number of players complaining on a forum is not in my experience is not representative of the wider golfing public. In any case any change will certainly will not involve net bouble bogey given that it was a key feature of UHS, as much as may wish to deny that to be the case.

Not content here in OZ......and that is not just me but the majority of people I know.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

......they don't bother hanging around because you can't entertain a sensible conversation.
It's all false conjecture and wild exaggeration to make your points.

False? Conjecture?
You confusing me with mjweather? I have posted stats and links a number of times, MJ then comes along, cherry picks a specific point, misrepresents it and says "see"!

He has now stopped as it seems even he can see he was embarrassing himself tho

But to the false conjecture, please do go on.....

 

[Banchory Buddha]

All this is largely irrelevant because I have a handicap, am a golf club member and am entitled to an opinion.
WHS is perhaps popular with golfers who do not have traditional memberships of traditional golf clubs. Perhaps that's why you don't like it. But it's progress.
And I haven't compared WHS to its predecessor. Never played it. Never made a comparison.

What are these non-traditional clubs? No clubs have been formed thanks to WHS, what a bizarre statement

How is it progress, you literally don't know because you never used UHS? You can't say a system is good, when you have no barometer, we're saying it's miles worse, you're saying no it's great because you like it. But maybe - and here's an amazing thought - if you played something more fit for purpose you'd like that better?

 

[rulefan]

Not content here in OZ......and that is not just me but the majority of people I know.

Not sure if I've asked this before but I had thought that WHS was based largely on the old OZ system. Was I wrong? What is so different now that has caused the discontent?

I know there are some differences now in WHS as opposed to the RoW (eg DH & 93%).

 

[RichA]

What are these non-traditional clubs? No clubs have been formed thanks to WHS, what a bizarre statement.

Again, not what I said.
I said, "WHS is perhaps popular with golfers who do not have traditional memberships of traditional golf clubs."
I assumed that it would be obvious that I was referring to nomadic/independent golfers. They apparently outnumber club golfers.

Maybe wjemather has retired from the conversation because he's got better things to do.
Thankfully, I have better things to do today.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Again, not what I said.
I said, "WHS is perhaps popular with golfers who do not have traditional memberships of traditional golf clubs."
I assumed that it would be obvious that I was referring to nomadic/independent golfers. They apparently outnumber club golfers.

Maybe wjemather has retired from the conversation because he's got better things to do.
Thankfully, I have better things to do today.

So you're meaning the Open Golf scheme?

An absolute abomination, an unchecked farce, no way of scores being checked by SG, though they claim they will be, thankfully many clubs are now stopping these guys entering opens, and so they should. Wed not even touched on that here, but yes it's dreadful. And no they don't outnumber independent golfers, something less than 10,000 last time SG put out numbers

 

[IanM]

So you're meaning the Open Golf scheme?

An absolute abomination, an unchecked farce, no way of scores being checked by SG, though they claim they will be, thankfully many clubs are now stopping these guys entering opens, and so they should. Wed not even touched on that here, but yes it's dreadful. And no they don't outnumber independent golfers, something less than 10,000 last time SG put out numbers

Same with the Welsh and English derivatives. Understand the intention, but they ignored the implications!