Official WHS Survey

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Voyager EMH

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Counties do not monitor everything clubs do, and do not have the ability or authority to do so - it is also not their function. Any divergence from the rules and guidance would need to be brought to their attention. From what you have said, it does not appear that county is aware, so they have not ignored anything.

Individuals and groups of players are not affiliated organisations, so are free to do anything they want with regards to handicaps, including not using WHS at all. Affiliated clubs must use WHS and follow the rules and guidance from their local handicapping authority.
I have stated this before when you have written this.
Where collection and redistribution of money is concerned, groups of players are not free to do anything they want.
They are still governed by laws of financial fraud or dishonesty, if unfair practices are being used.
 

Swango1980

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I've obviously heard what some of the very knowledgeable folks in here have said about Clubs being able to ignore as much of WHS as they wish. Very useful to know, I obviously was mislead by the words used in the WHS manual, fooled into thinking Clubs had certain responsibilities.

Anyway, given that England Golf employees are very enthusiastic about golf, I wouldn't be surprised if they keep an eye on popular forums like these. It would be great if they could simply come on here, and confirm Clubs can do as they please.

Once confirmation is made, I'll go speak to our Competition Secretary, and suggest we start using 70% Allowance in our Club Comps (singles medal play) as a starting point. He is a low handicapper, and there are a decent amout of lower end handicappers at the club, so I think this is something that would "suit" our membership. At any rate, there is a cheaper course for beginners just down the road, so if any higher handicappers are a bit uncomfortable with this, they can just join there instead. Everyone is happy :)
 

Swango1980

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I have not "accused" anyone. So no need for anyone to resent what I have stated.
Others here have stated that I have done some "accusing". They are wrong to do this "accusing" me of doing something I have not done.
I have reported that nothing has been done at county level about my club running AmAms with incorrect allowances.
I call this "ignoring", but I am not accusing county of actively choosing to ignore.
The ignoring my be active or passive - I don't know and it makes no difference to what is occurring at club level if nothing is being done about it.
I think you need to buy a dictionary for Xmas.

Ignore - disregard intentionally

Otherwise, you must be very uncomfortable in your role of ignoring every crime ever committed since your birth. Shame on you :)
 

D-S

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Ignoring is to intentionally disregard something from the Cambridge Dictionary

"to intentionally not listen or give attention to "

It is not passive.
 

D-S

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I've obviously heard what some of the very knowledgeable folks in here have said about Clubs being able to ignore as much of WHS as they wish. Very useful to know, I obviously was mislead by the words used in the WHS manual, fooled into thinking Clubs had certain responsibilities.

Anyway, given that England Golf employees are very enthusiastic about golf, I wouldn't be surprised if they keep an eye on popular forums like these. It would be great if they could simply come on here, and confirm Clubs can do as they please.

Once confirmation is made, I'll go speak to our Competition Secretary, and suggest we start using 70% Allowance in our Club Comps (singles medal play) as a starting point. He is a low handicapper, and there are a decent amout of lower end handicappers at the club, so I think this is something that would "suit" our membership. At any rate, there is a cheaper course for beginners just down the road, so if any higher handicappers are a bit uncomfortable with this, they can just join there instead. Everyone is happy :)
There are County representatives on here who EG delegate responsibility to and they confirm that clubs cannot do as they please in this regard.
 

Voyager EMH

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There is no real problem there and there is no discussion whatsoever of disaffiliating. I dont think county are as dogmatic as you suggest, and presume they recognise different circumstances can need specific solutions. Its no great extension from what we have been doing anyway for years with midweek nine hole competitions. Your handicap for those is reduced by a shot if you have won one within the previous two months. Fully recorded handicap competitions and so adjustments to indexes are applied normally, but if A and B both have 20 points on the computer, but A won a competition a month ago, his score is corrected to 19 points, and B is the winner. All members are happy and used to it. A neighbouring club does something similar and dont think its that unusual. The three board comps will just be a similar off the grid correction to determine the winner from a 0.9 factor, who may or may not be the one on the top of the computer print. Nobody will care about modifying the rest of the field that arent up with a chance of having the modified winning placing, as finishing 47th or 53rd isnt even of interest to the person with that score.
After all the consequent discussion, I am inclined to think that a club doing this (90% allowance for individual strokeplay comp) in an open an honest way to members, is in no breach of anything that would incur a sanction from county level.
Members are given a choice of talking part or not taking part, if they disagree with the terms of comp.
This would be consistent with the effective current practices of scrutiny at club and county level.

However - I don't like it.
I would prefer correct allowances to be used at all times.
 

Arthur Wedge

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If the club running comps with incorrect allowances is a "breach" and nothing is done about this by county level authority, then it has been ignored.
What exact form this ignoring took, I can not say. Neither can you, unless you have knowledge of exactly what did and did not occur.
But club level comps run with incorrect allowances does occur and no more is done or not done at county level authority than with sub-groups running comps however they choose.

Club does not sanction sub-groups and county does not sanction clubs. I call this "ignoring" the practice of incorrect allowances being used.

An “sub group” or swindle etc etc

Can play the game how they want

They as a group are not affiliated to anything and are therefore not required to abide by mandatory HC allowances and can do whatever they want
 

Arthur Wedge

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I have stated this before when you have written this.
Where collection and redistribution of money is concerned, groups of players are not free to do anything they want.
They are still governed by laws of financial fraud or dishonesty, if unfair practices are being used.

In a list of nonsense that’s close to being the top prize

Got to be a wind up

Players can have any side bet they want

I can’t wait to tell the swindle that the £2 we play for on a Saturday is dishonest and financial fraud because we use our own handicap system

We also use pick and place everywhere 😲
 

Voyager EMH

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In a list of nonsense that’s close to being the top prize

Got to be a wind up

Players can have any side bet they want

I can’t wait to tell the swindle that the £2 we play for on a Saturday is dishonest and financial fraud because we use our own handicap system

We also use pick and place everywhere 😲
There was a case of a financial fraud in my county in the 1970s with regard to the organisation of a golf event. A bit bigger than £2, but the principle of the law is the same.
Definitely not nonsense.
 

Dunesman

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An “sub group” or swindle etc etc

Can play the game how they want

They as a group are not affiliated to anything and are therefore not required to abide by mandatory HC allowances and can do whatever they want
So if all club comps were passed to a 'sub-group' to run, and not the 'club', would everyone be happy with members running competition according to their wishes ? Whether compliant with EG recommendations or requirements or not.
Handicap Indexes of course still run by the EG book, so 100% valid on that. But playing allowances etc, no need to feel obliged and can be tailored to the players needs.
 

Voyager EMH

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What was this case and I’m going to guess it’s got nothing to do with HC allowances
A very long time ago. Really not worth going into details. Can't remember that clearly 50 years after the event.
It was serious enough for some of us to be wary of "unfair practices" with regards to organisation of golf events.

"Event organiser" is a term used in the Rules of Handicapping.
 

AussieKB

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Guys stop getting in a tizzy over this, if it is anything like when WHS started in OZ you only have to wait for another change to be made, they came on a regular basis here.

But as long as you have a high handicap all is good.
 

Voyager EMH

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I have long thought that the 2s sweep we have is unfair. I seem to do unfairly well out of it.
Discussed this with H&C chairman, club pro, club treasurer and club captain some years ago.

They remained certain that as it is an optional £1 to enter, then all is well. But the debate was well worth having. One has to be careful about unfair practices.

From time to time, I buy a box of balls and donate this as a prize for an event. Used to do this for the junior section, but that no longer exists.
 

Arthur Wedge

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So if all club comps were passed to a 'sub-group' to run, and not the 'club', would everyone be happy with members running competition according to their wishes ? Whether compliant with EG recommendations or requirements or not.
Handicap Indexes of course still run by the EG book, so 100% valid on that. But playing allowances etc, no need to feel obliged and can be tailored to the players needs.

Why would a golf club do that 🤷‍♂️

Guess they could be like Swinley or New Zealand where they run it without being affiliated with EG
 
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Arthur Wedge

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A very long time ago. Really not worth going into details. Can't remember that clearly 50 years after the event.
It was serious enough for some of us to be wary of "unfair practices" with regards to organisation of golf events.

"Event organiser" is a term used in the Rules of Handicapping.


Event organiser means someone organising official club qualifying competitions


Not someone running a swindle
 

Arthur Wedge

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I have long thought that the 2s sweep we have is unfair. I seem to do unfairly well out of it.
Discussed this with H&C chairman, club pro, club treasurer and club captain some years ago.

They remained certain that as it is an optional £1 to enter, then all is well. But the debate was well worth having. One has to be careful about unfair practices.

From time to time, I buy a box of balls and donate this as a prize for an event. Used to do this for the junior section, but that no longer exists.

How is a 2’s sweep unfair
 
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Just seen the results from our November monthly stablford.

Div 1
1st 39 points

Div 2
1st with a staggering 39 points

Playing at a relatively tough course that doesn’t have a culture of handicap manipulation is 😊
 

Swango1980

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So if all club comps were passed to a 'sub-group' to run, and not the 'club', would everyone be happy with members running competition according to their wishes ? Whether compliant with EG recommendations or requirements or not.
Handicap Indexes of course still run by the EG book, so 100% valid on that. But playing allowances etc, no need to feel obliged and can be tailored to the players needs.
A Golf Club could do that, but there would be little point in it being affiliated. It wouldn't be holding up its end of the bargain, as it has refused to take responsibility. Instead, it has shifted the responsibility to others, who are now free to run things that oppose the Rules of Handicapping.

No problem if the members of the Club want that I suppose, I'm guessing there are a few unaffiliated Clubs out there?
 
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