Official WHS Survey

[Voyager EMH]

Why on earth would authorities get involved in how a member runs their swindle handicaps and why is that “dishonest” ?!

Indeed they don't and I can see why they do ignore the mis-application of the Rules Of Handicapping for sub-groups within clubs.
That is and should be a matter for that club to deal with.

The idea of a 90% allowance for individual strokeplay comps was described as "dishonest" and also a strong suggestion this this would catch the attention of county level authority.
I picked up on the notion of "dishonest" and applied this to what goes on at my club regularly where correct allowances are not used both in swindles and club-run comps like AmAms.

So the notion of "dishonest" is of no particular interest to county level authorities and neither does it seem that they are particularly interested in internal organisation of club-comps where incorrect allowances are used.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Indeed they don't and I can see why they do ignore the mis-application of the Rules Of Handicapping for sub-groups within clubs.
That is and should be a matter for that club to deal with.

The idea of a 90% allowance for individual strokeplay comps was described as "dishonest" and also a strong suggestion this this would catch the attention of county level authority.
I picked up on the notion of "dishonest" and applied this to what goes on at my club regularly where correct allowances are not used both in swindles and club-run comps like AmAms.

So the notion of "dishonest" is of no particular interest to county level authorities and neither does it seem that they are particularly interested in internal organisation of club-comps where incorrect allowances are used.

Why the heck would a club get involved in a member run swindle and tell them what HC it use

There is nothing for anyone to “deal with”

How people want to play their swindle is entirely up to them - not the club or the county

 

[Voyager EMH]

Again, what specific case of an affiliated club breaking the Rules of Handicapping has been ignored by the LRGU?

You are asking me a question that does not apply to what I posted.

The debate was about a club running a comp with 90% allowance for individual strokeplay and the potential for a reprimand from county level authority for doing this.
"Dishonesty" was also mentioned in this regard.

I stated that I have played in club-run comps that did not use the correct allowance for the format of play ("dishonesty") and that county level authority ignored this, as far as I know.

 

[clubchamp98]

If it’s dishonest to use 90% and disadvantage high handicappers .
Why is it ok to use 95% and disadvantage low handicappers?

Isn’t it ok for high handicappers to place high but not really win much as is the case for low handicappers?

If only there was somewhere in the middle to help everyone.

Maybe Australia knows something we don’t!

 

[Voyager EMH]

Why the heck would a club get involved in a member run swindle and tell them what HC it use

There is nothing for anyone to “deal with”

How people want to play their swindle is entirely up to them - not the club or the county

Not even if "dishonest" people are redistributing money in a "dishonest" way that could harm the reputation of the club?
Still no intervention by officers of the club? Just ignore it?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Not even if "dishonest" people are redistributing money in a "dishonest" way that could harm the reputation of the club?
Still no intervention by officers of the club? Just ignore it?

How is it “dishonest”

 

[Eesat 90210]

Are you accusing him of lying? I suggest that is a rather more serious accusation to a fellow member of the forum.

OMG that has genuinely made me laugh out loud....

I get images of some old duffers in blazers with glasses of port pointing their finger at each other accusing an esteemed and long-standing member of being slightly lenient with the rules...I'm not sure taking 1 minute to sign up to an anonymous internet chat room is really the equivalent of joining the R&A...

 

[Eesat 90210]

Anyway,
Swindle/roll-up golf is often completely different handicap-wise than normal competition golf. As a one-time guest it might seem a bit bizarre that they're using 100% allowance, or that Jim who's proper index is 11.5 but he's playing off 18 today..but most swindles operate on a rolling basis that makes sure the same people don't scoop the money too often.

People get cut sharply for winning, people go up a lot for playing rubbish for an extended period, it's generally about fun and spreading the cash around evenly, it works well over period of time for those who play regularly.

 

[D-S]

You are asking me a question that does not apply to what I posted.

The debate was about a club running a comp with 90% allowance for individual strokeplay and the potential for a reprimand from county level authority for doing this.
"Dishonesty" was also mentioned in this regard.

I stated that I have played in club-run comps that did not use the correct allowance for the format of play ("dishonesty") and that county level authority ignored this, as far as I know.

How do you know that the County have ignored this? Do you know that they were made aware that a club run competition was breaching the rules of handicapping and they have taken no action whatsoever?

Action does not mean immediate disaffiliation, this would only be used as an absolute a last resort.

I would expect initially a discussion and some advice so that competitions were run correctly in future.

I assume you know that this didn’t happen as you said they just ignored the breach?

 

[rulefan]

Are these various unofficial allowances (90%, 95%, etc) being used to calculate new Indices or just for results?

 

[wjemather]

You are asking me a question that does not apply to what I posted.

The debate was about a club running a comp with 90% allowance for individual strokeplay and the potential for a reprimand from county level authority for doing this.
"Dishonesty" was also mentioned in this regard.

I stated that I have played in club-run comps that did not use the correct allowance for the format of play ("dishonesty") and that county level authority ignored this, as far as I know.

I fear you have misunderstood the context in which "dishonesty" was suggested. It is not the use of non-mandated allowances in itself that is dishonest, but the things that went with it, including: making efforts to conceal that is happening from the county/EG, being disingenuous about why it was happening, not being truthful about the effect, etc.

 

[D-S]

Are these various unofficial allowances (90%, 95%, etc) being used to calculate new Indices or just for results?

Allowances are never used to calculate score differentials and therefore resultant index changes, they are for working out competition results.

 

[Swango1980]

Are these various unofficial allowances (90%, 95%, etc) being used to calculate new Indices or just for results

How could an allowance be used to calculate Indices, when they do not feature in the formula to calculate Score Differentials?

 

[AussieKB]

If it’s dishonest to use 90% and disadvantage high handicappers .
Why is it ok to use 95% and disadvantage low handicappers?

Isn’t it ok for high handicappers to place high but not really win much as is the case for low handicappers?

If only there was somewhere in the middle to help everyone.

Maybe Australia knows something we don’t!

We know if you want to win then become a Sandbagger

 

[clubchamp98]

We know if you want to win then become a Sandbagger

I’d rather not win

But there’s plenty out there that would and do.

 

[Voyager EMH]

How do you know that the County have ignored this? Do you know that they were made aware that a club run competition was breaching the rules of handicapping and they have taken no action whatsoever?

Action does not mean immediate disaffiliation, this would only be used as an absolute a last resort.

I would expect initially a discussion and some advice so that competitions were run correctly in future.

I assume you know that this didn’t happen as you said they just ignored the breach?

If the club running comps with incorrect allowances is a "breach" and nothing is done about this by county level authority, then it has been ignored.
What exact form this ignoring took, I can not say. Neither can you, unless you have knowledge of exactly what did and did not occur.
But club level comps run with incorrect allowances does occur and no more is done or not done at county level authority than with sub-groups running comps however they choose.

Club does not sanction sub-groups and county does not sanction clubs. I call this "ignoring" the practice of incorrect allowances being used.

 

[D-S]

If the County is unaware because they have not been told that a club is breaching the rules then they have not ignored it and they would rightly resent your accusation.

 

[rulefan]

Allowances are never used to calculate score differentials and therefore resultant index changes, they are for working out competition results.

How could an allowance be used to calculate Indices, when they do not feature in the formula to calculate Score Differentials?

I was getting an impression from a few posts (apparently wrongly) that HIs were being 'adjusted' after the event.

 

[wjemather]

If the club running comps with incorrect allowances is a "breach" and nothing is done about this by county level authority, then it has been ignored.
What exact form this ignoring took, I can not say. Neither can you, unless you have knowledge of exactly what did and did not occur.
But club level comps run with incorrect allowances does occur and no more is done or not done at county level authority than with sub-groups running comps however they choose.

Club does not sanction sub-groups and county does not sanction clubs. I call this "ignoring" the practice of incorrect allowances being used.

Counties do not monitor everything clubs do, and do not have the ability or authority to do so - it is also not their function. Any divergence from the rules and guidance would need to be brought to their attention. From what you have said, it does not appear that county is aware, so they have not ignored anything.

Individuals and groups of players are not affiliated organisations, so are free to do anything they want with regards to handicaps, including not using WHS at all. Affiliated clubs must use WHS and follow the rules and guidance from their local handicapping authority.

 

[Voyager EMH]

If the County is unaware because they have not been told that a club is breaching the rules then they have not ignored it and they would rightly resent your accusation.

I have not "accused" anyone. So no need for anyone to resent what I have stated.
Others here have stated that I have done some "accusing". They are wrong to do this "accusing" me of doing something I have not done.
I have reported that nothing has been done at county level about my club running AmAms with incorrect allowances.
I call this "ignoring", but I am not accusing county of actively choosing to ignore.
The ignoring my be active or passive - I don't know and it makes no difference to what is occurring at club level if nothing is being done about it.