Mesut Ozil

[ColchesterFC]

Granted, he hasn't performed as well for England, but he was mainly shifted around the team not playing in his best position.

And the other thing being that if you are truly world class then you are too good to be moved from your best position to fit in with the team. Messi and Ronaldo don't get played at left back to fit in with the rest of the team. They are played in their best position and the rest of the team work around them because they are too good at what they do to be moved from where they perform to their best.

 

[Liverbirdie]

And the other thing being that if you are truly world class then you are too good to be moved from your best position to fit in with the team. Messi and Ronaldo don't get played at left back to fit in with the rest of the team. They are played in their best position and the rest of the team work around them because they are too good at what they do to be moved from where they perform to their best.

In your opinion is Suarez world class? Is Neymar?

How would you fit them into Barcelonas team?

 

[ColchesterFC]

In your opinion is Suarez world class? Is Neymar?

How would you fit them into Barcelonas team?

In my opinion, Suarez probably, Neymar not yet (but really haven't seen enough of him to be convinced either way totally). If you are looking to get all 3 of them into the Barcelona team then I would say Suarez up front with Messi and Neymar just behind him in free roles in a fairly loose 4-3-2-1 formation but with me not being totally convinced with Neymar would say Suarez up front with Messi behind in a free role (Neymar on the bench as an impact sub) in a roughly 4-4-1-1 formation.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I refer you to my points above. Looks better than he actually is due to the players he's had around him.

If he is a truly world class player then why have him and Lampard never done it together for England.

Sorry but utter utter nonsense

Gerrard in 04 spent the whole season on his own getting Liverpool into the CL - the next year in the CL Final on the biggest stage he produced when it mattered

To dismiss Gerrard and in fact Lampard as Top players based on England only getting to a couple of quarter finals is laughable

Gerrard was hardly ever played in his favoured position for England - he was shifted around to accommodate other players including Lampard , Barry etc because his ability enabled him to play a number of different roles

 

[Marshy77]

Gerrard- you now officially know nothing about football.

Agreed. People may dislike a player (Beckham for instance - who again was a fantastic player) but to say there massively overatted is bordering on stupidity.

 

[Foxholer]

Sorry. How can opinion be wrong. Didn't realise you had the definitive vote on what is and isn't correct

Having a differing opinion isn't wrong! But if the two opinions directly conflict with each other, then one of them has to be wrong! So the answer is - very easily!

There's also a lot of 'grey area' where apparently conflicting, subjective, opinions could have equal validity.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Having a differing opinion isn't wrong! But if the two opinions directly conflict with each other, then one of them has to be wrong! So the answer is - very easily!

There's also a lot of 'grey area' where apparently conflicting, subjective, opinions could have equal validity.

You make a good point but the whole thread is based on opinions, even directly conflicting (look at the Lampard/Gerrard ones). However even if they are poles apart and direct opposites, that doesn't give LP or indeed anyone else the right to say I'm wrong. If the thread was factually based and there was a proven answer to it available then I'm happy to be proved wrong. However when it's an opinion I think I, and everyone else contributing to the thread should be able to post what they think without someone blatantly saying they are wrong. That's nothing short of ill informed and rude.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter and I don't want what was said yesterday to deflect from the thread so having said my bit I'll leave it there and wait news of who is or isn't going to be the saviour of Liverpool, Arsenal, Utd, Chelsea et al

 

[pokerjoke]

Ozil is a top player and I think the OP is way off the mark. Someone has to do the simple stuff and he does it well and is a fulcrum for the Arsenal pass and move style. It's no different to the stuff the likes of Barry has done for his club and England for so long

Ozil in the PM has not proved to be a top player yet,not even close.
If you pay 42 million for someone to do the simple stuff your soon going to be
bankrupt.
You may not have meant to compare Ozil with Barry but to me and others it came across
that way.
To say Phil was disagreeing with you just for the sake of it is wrong in fact imo hes right.
Of course its all about opinions and with a thread like this [especially football] they always
turn into arguments.

 

[pokerjoke]

In my opinion, Suarez probably, Neymar not yet (but really haven't seen enough of him to be convinced either way totally). If you are looking to get all 3 of them into the Barcelona team then I would say Suarez up front with Messi and Neymar just behind him in free roles in a fairly loose 4-3-2-1 formation but with me not being totally convinced with Neymar would say Suarez up front with Messi behind in a free role (Neymar on the bench as an impact sub) in a roughly 4-4-1-1 formation.

Of course Neymars world class.
He was Brazil in the World cup without him they were average.
Lampard was a class midfielder as was Gerrard in the PL.
For England that's debatable,however you cant argue that week in week out
in the PL for their respective teams they were great midfielders.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Ozil in the PM has not proved to be a top player yet,not even close.
If you pay 42 million for someone to do the simple stuff your soon going to be
bankrupt.
You may not have meant to compare Ozil with Barry but to me and others it came across
that way.
To say Phil was disagreeing with you just for the sake of it is wrong in fact imo hes right.
Of course its all about opinions and with a thread like this [especially football] they always
turn into arguments.

My biggest gripe was being told my opinion was wrong. Whether you agree or not it was an opinion to which I'm entitled to without anyone having the right to tell me categorically it's incorrect when it's a thread based on entirely on opinions and not a factual based discussion with a given correct answer. Enough said, lets move on

 

[Deleted member 15344]

What I was saying was wrong was you suggest Ozil was doing the simple was a water carrier and was linking the play from the back to the creative players and mentioning players like Barry when that is clearly wrong - regardless of opinion or anything - only have to watch Ozil to see he does no such thing

For Germany and for Madrid he played and drifted in from the right to put himself on his left foot and that opened him up to create - the water carrying work was done by players like Khedria

At Arsenal he started on the right but moved across to the left - currently he is still on the left of a three behind a striker with Carzola in the middle and Sanchez on the right - the water carrying work is done by Ramsey and Wilshire and Arteta

That's clear as day when watching Arsenal and Germany and when he was at Madrid - there is no just simple stuff , there is no water carrying along the lines of Gareth Barry - he is the creator playing in the wider areas

Ozil is a number ten - play him behind the striker with players like Walcott and Sanchez running off him and then you will see the best of him

 

[Liverbirdie]

In my opinion, Suarez probably, Neymar not yet (but really haven't seen enough of him to be convinced either way totally). If you are looking to get all 3 of them into the Barcelona team then I would say Suarez up front with Messi and Neymar just behind him in free roles in a fairly loose 4-3-2-1 formation but with me not being totally convinced with Neymar would say Suarez up front with Messi behind in a free role (Neymar on the bench as an impact sub) in a roughly 4-4-1-1 formation.

So intead of keeping a world class player like Messi in his best position, you would consider moving him around to accommodate all or some of the other players then.

Gerrard and Lampard were world class, but playing together for England they never produced. Unfortunately successive managers kept trying it, but because Lampard was only effective as an attacking midfielder, Gerrard was normally played as the more defensive option.

 

[ColchesterFC]

So intead of keeping a world class player like Messi in his best position, you would consider moving him around to accommodate all or some of the other players then.

Gerrard and Lampard were world class, but playing together for England they never produced. Unfortunately successive managers kept trying it, but because Lampard was only effective as an attacking midfielder, Gerrard was normally played as the more defensive option.

I wouldn't consider moving Messi. I'd give him the number 10 shirt and tell him to go out and do what he does best. I said if you wanted to get all 3 into the team then that's the option but if you re-read my post I said I'd leave Neymar on the bench.

As for Gerard and Lampard being world class - that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. My opinion is that you are wrong and they aren't world class. Good players yes but in my opinion not truly great or world class. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Of course Neymars world class.
He was Brazil in the World cup without him they were average.
Lampard was a class midfielder as was Gerrard in the PL.
For England that's debatable,however you cant argue that week in week out
in the PL for their respective teams they were great midfielders.

As I said I haven't seen enough of Neymar to know whether he's world class or not. Didn't see much of the world cup due to work so until I've seen him play more I won't be able to form an opinion.

Week in, week out in the PL they have both been very good players. No argument on that. But I still maintain my original position and that is that in my opinion they were made to look better by the players they had around them. And because of that they are over rated. That's just my opinion and nothing that's been said on here has changed my mind yet. Maybe if the debate had risen above comments like "you know nothing about football" from Liverbirdie and had progressed to an actual debate instead of being at that sort of playground level then maybe someone would have said something to make me reconsider.

 

[Papas1982]

As I said I haven't seen enough of Neymar to know whether he's world class or not. Didn't see much of the world cup due to work so until I've seen him play more I won't be able to form an opinion.

Week in, week out in the PL they have both been very good players. No argument on that. But I still maintain my original position and that is that in my opinion they were made to look better by the players they had around them. And because of that they are over rated. That's just my opinion and nothing that's been said on here has changed my mind yet. Maybe if the debate had risen above comments like "you know nothing about football" from Liverbirdie and had progressed to an actual debate instead of being at that sort of playground level then maybe someone would have said something to make me reconsider.

Can I just ask, the players you lsted as making Gerrard look better. How many of them do you think were better than Gerrard? Because if nit all of them, then surely your logic re messi/Ronaldo making others looks better could be applied?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Maybe those other players were made to look great because of Gerrard - how did Torres and Owen do when they left Liverpool ?

Maybe Torres scored all those goals because of the play of Gerrard ?

Both of them have more goals in the Prem than most of the strikers that have played in the Prem

For 15 years Gerrard has been in the centre of the park for his club - in 04 the squad was poor - very poor. In 05 we still had a poor squad but managed to win the CL - Gerrards performances during that run were outstanding.

In 06 he then dragged the club through the FA Cup final and he has continually performed week in week out for his club.

Watching Gerrard over the years and he was world class at the height of his form - he was up there with the best central mids seen in the league ever.

 

[Pin-seeker]

Maybe those other players were made to look great because of Gerrard - how did Torres and Owen do when they left Liverpool ?

Maybe Torres scored all those goals because of the play of Gerrard ?

Both of them have more goals in the Prem than most of the strikers that have played in the Prem

For 15 years Gerrard has been in the centre of the park for his club - in 04 the squad was poor - very poor. In 05 we still had a poor squad but managed to win the CL - Gerrards performances during that run were outstanding.

In 06 he then dragged the club through the FA Cup final and he has continually performed week in week out for his club.

Watching Gerrard over the years and he was world class at the height of his form - he was up there with the best central mids seen in the league ever.

Owen did well at Real when he got the chance.
On the flip side what about Carrol,Robbie Keane & Morientes.
They all scored plenty before joining Liverpool & playing with Gerrard.

 

[Liverbirdie]

As I said I haven't seen enough of Neymar to know whether he's world class or not. Didn't see much of the world cup due to work so until I've seen him play more I won't be able to form an opinion.

Week in, week out in the PL they have both been very good players. No argument on that. But I still maintain my original position and that is that in my opinion they were made to look better by the players they had around them. And because of that they are over rated. That's just my opinion and nothing that's been said on here has changed my mind yet. Maybe if the debate had risen above comments like "you know nothing about football" from Liverbirdie and had progressed to an actual debate instead of being at that sort of playground level then maybe someone would have said something to make me reconsider.

So by that reckoning no player playing for Barcelona, Real Madrid, Chelsea, City etc can be tagged world class, as they are normally also surrounded by great players then.

In comparison to most acknowledged world class players over the last 15 years, Gerrard has been surrounded by less great players. Ronaldo, Messi, Van Nistelrooy, Henry, Drogba had many world class and great players surrounding them, whereas Gerrard only generally had 2-3 at any one time. Great players bring out the best in each other, and the more you have the more chance of winning. Gerrard sometimes single-handedly won finals for Liverpool. Over-rated or not, for a time he would have been the first name in midfield for most neutral fans/players/journalists in a world 11.

 

[Pin-seeker]

So by that reckoning no player playing for Barcelona, Real Madrid, Chelsea, City etc can be tagged world class, as they are normally also surrounded by great players then.

In comparison to most acknowledged world class players over the last 15 years, Gerrard has been surrounded by less great players. Ronaldo, Messi, Van Nistelrooy, Henry, Drogba had many world class and great players surrounding them, whereas Gerrard only generally had 2-3 at any one time. Great players bring out the best in each other, and the more you have the more chance of winning. Gerrard sometimes single-handedly won finals for Liverpool. Over-rated or not, for a time he would have been the first name in midfield for most neutral fans/players/journalists in a world 11.

I'll give you 2nd after Lampard,but that best your getting I'm afraid

 

[Liverbirdie]

I'll give you 2nd after Lampard,but that best your getting I'm afraid

Who is this impostor of pinseeker we've had this last week.

Unmask him I say.