chrisd
Major Champion
Is a ball in the pond not a ball in play until a subsequent action is taken?
Matchplay question
- Thread starter chrisd
- Start date
Is a ball in the pond not a ball in play until a subsequent action is taken?
salfordlad
Well-known member
23.6/1's example is where a player fails to play on their permitted order with all other players (partner and opponents) finishing first, with the result that they are no longer permitted to play. The OP has this feature. However, the practical question here is whether the OP additional feature of the player in the pond saying they will only play if their partner messes up changes that answer. Given the critical status that order of play has in match play, my thinking is it doesn't change anything but perhaps this is one best sent upstairs.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
Sorry, not taken in completely I see it was an opponent.
It is just the sort of thing I do when playing - I never pick up until I am a certain I cannot score better than my partner, a lesson learnt many years ago I reckoned I would not get better than a 6 on par 4 so picked up, I reckoned my partner no worse than 5 he then got a 7.
Kellfire
Blackballed
I’m not sure, that’s why I’m asking. In my mind it is a ball in play so long as his team mate has a ball in play. Does it remain in play once he’s holed out?
Colin L
Tour Winner
it's still in play. (Think of the number of times in fourball a player holes out to secure a half so that his partner can go for a win with his longer putt.)
Swango1980
Well-known member
What about undue delay of play. On the walk to the green, the player may have walked past the drop zone / area. Had he taken a drop and played his shot when it would have been his turn, this would have been most efficient in terms of time. However, he walked past this point towards the green, and then later walked all the way back to play the shot. This could cause a great delay on play, especially if the drop zone was a long way in front of the green.
But, imagine the player hit it into the water a long way in front of the green, such that he would be dropping 150 yards short of the green. He walks past this point, and decides he won't play on (but will do if it later transpires his score may still count). Play continues, and players eventually hole out. At that point, the player who stuck it in the water decides that if he holes out from where he'd dropped, his score may count. So, he walks all the way back 150 yards, plays shot, then walks 150 yards back towards the green. So, the player has effectively given himself another 300 yards to walk. Would that be considered undue delay?
Even if the water was a shorter distance in front of the green, if a players holed out on the green, and then one player walked back to drop a ball in front of the water, I know how I'd feel if I was in the group behind.
I'm sure this does not match the geography of the OPs question.
But, imagine the player hit it into the water a long way in front of the green, such that he would be dropping 150 yards short of the green. He walks past this point, and decides he won't play on (but will do if it later transpires his score may still count). Play continues, and players eventually hole out. At that point, the player who stuck it in the water decides that if he holes out from where he'd dropped, his score may count. So, he walks all the way back 150 yards, plays shot, then walks 150 yards back towards the green. So, the player has effectively given himself another 300 yards to walk. Would that be considered undue delay?
Even if the water was a shorter distance in front of the green, if a players holed out on the green, and then one player walked back to drop a ball in front of the water, I know how I'd feel if I was in the group behind.
chrisd
Major Champion
I agree it's annoying but I'm after learning rules for situations that I haven't come across before and in this case had he carried out his plan it would have taken about 30 seconds, but not more than a minute, to walk to the back of the pond to takes a drop, and the middle of the green from the tee is 125 yards, with the pond (green side) about 15 yards from the front of the green.
There was no group waiting behind.
Kellfire
Blackballed
Yes but the ball is physically in play at that point. It doesn’t require dropped. That’s what confused me.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Understood, but a ball in a penalty area doesn't have to be dropped. It can be played as it lies - even if the lie is somewhat damp.
chrisd
Major Champion
Colin, are/were you of the view that no rule was broken given my explanation?
salfordlad
Well-known member
For information: a ruling body has now confirmed (written advice) that the player in the pond had forfeited the right to finish the hole, citing the authority as 23.6/1.
chrisd
Major Champion
Even though the player in the pond clearly didn't indicate that they weren't going to finish the hole which surely was the main point of 23.6/1 in fact the player clearly indicated that he was intending to continue the hole if necessary. That decision, which would be quite fair in my opinion is, however, quite the opposite of what 23.6/1 says. That is, unless, the ruling is because he IMPLIED he MIGHT NOT finish the hole?
,"In a Four-Ball match, if a side states or implies that the player on that side whose ball is farthest from the hole will not complete the hole, that player has abandoned his or her right to complete the hole, and the side may not change that decision after an opponent has played."
Maybe "will not complete the hole" should be changed to " may not complete the hole" ? There's a lot of difference between "will not" and "may" ?
Thanks for your post though
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salfordlad
Well-known member
And thank you for your interpretation of 23.6/1 also. But to be very clear, the question that went to a ruling body was precisely your OP. The response was the player in the pond forfeited their capacity to finish the hole when they failed to play before either opponent closer to the hole played.
The unavoidable conclusion is many readers of 23.6/1 are misunderstanding that interpretation.
And nothing personal - I loved your question and I thank you for bringing it forward - but I have a strong tendency to prefer the views signed off by the USGA or the R&A than any contrary views that I or others sometimes come up with.
It is through processes like this that we can all get a better understanding of the rules.
chrisd
Major Champion
Thanks for your explanation and I would say that I would happily accept the ruling, in fact, had the hole panned out that our opponents did play out the hole after their 1st player messed up my PP and I would not have been happy. At least I now know the ruling should it happen again, thanks!
rulefan
Tour Winner
So the OP and post #3 are different situations with different answers?
salfordlad
Well-known member
No, the question sent in included the information in #3.
rulefan
Tour Winner
So is the modified post the same as the Q&A posted by the USGA?
salfordlad
Well-known member
Not the same, as you can observe by comparing Chris' question as reported in posts 1 and 3 with the USGA published Q reported above.
rulefan
Tour Winner
I was just seeking confirmation,. The thread was getting confusing.
chrisd
Major Champion
I'd just like to add the other rule matters that occurred during the match, but which were dealt with (I hope) correctly
As we walked to the tee we were asked , " if the predicted lightening comes can we agree that the pair winning at that time are declared the winners"
Hole 17 first player carves his ball right, he then walks on the tee after we've all tee'd off and hits another. He then plays 2nd ball and starts to walk to where his 1st ball may be, I point out that he didn't indicate he was playing a provisional so he can't play the 1st ball. "I said I'm hitting another" he says to me "so it's obvious it's a provisional"
18th, my ball is laying next to an inspection cover and I would have to stand on it to play to the green (par 3) I call him over " you only get a drop if your ball is on it" says he!
These are guys who are winning club stroke play comps !
It does make you wonder !!
As we walked to the tee we were asked , " if the predicted lightening comes can we agree that the pair winning at that time are declared the winners"
Hole 17 first player carves his ball right, he then walks on the tee after we've all tee'd off and hits another. He then plays 2nd ball and starts to walk to where his 1st ball may be, I point out that he didn't indicate he was playing a provisional so he can't play the 1st ball. "I said I'm hitting another" he says to me "so it's obvious it's a provisional"
18th, my ball is laying next to an inspection cover and I would have to stand on it to play to the green (par 3) I call him over " you only get a drop if your ball is on it" says he!
These are guys who are winning club stroke play comps !
It does make you wonder !!
