Matchplay question

[chrisd]

I played a 4bbb match yesterday and a question arose

Playing a 125 yard par 3 my partner was on the green for one, one of our opponents also on in one, I was just off the green in one and their 2nd player dumped his tee shot in the pond in front of the green. The guy in the pond didn't drop a ball as he thought his partner would make a 3.

I chipped on a bit strong and made 4, my partner 3 putted for 4 and so did their player who was on (all a bit clumsy). The player who was in the pond then announced that, as he could drop a ball and still make 3 if he chipped in, started to walk back but was told by his partner not to bother as we'd halved and he was very unlikely to pull the shot off.

My partner was convinced that as he'd missed his turn he couldn't play because he knew how the hole had finished which gave him an advantage, I felt he could and said I'd check to be certain, my reasoning being that when it was their turn to play their player nearest the hole could play first as many times as he needed to and the other player wasnt obliged to drop a ball until it was his turn.

Who was right ?

 

[wjemather]

He cannot go back and resume play of the hole.

Interpretation 23.6/1: In a Four-Ball match, if a side states or implies that the player on that side whose ball is farthest from the hole will not complete the hole, that player has abandoned his or her right to complete the hole, and the side may not change that decision after an opponent has played.

 

[chrisd]

He cannot go back and resume play of the hole.

Interpretation 23.6/1: In a Four-Ball match, if a side states or implies that the player on that side whose ball is farthest from the hole will not complete the hole, that player has abandoned his or her right to complete the hole, and the side may not change that decision after an opponent has played.

Sorry forgot to add that, apparently he told my partner he would only go back and play if his partner messed up (vital in the ruling but I forgot)

 

[Colin L]

Sorry forgot to add that, apparently he told my partner he would only go back and play if his partner messed up (vital in the ruling but I forgot)

In that case, the hole was not finished and he could play.

 

[williamalex1]

In that case, the hole was not finished and he could play.

 

[chrisd]

In that case, the hole was not finished and he could play.

Thanks

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sorry forgot to add that, apparently he told my partner he would only go back and play if his partner messed up (vital in the ruling but I forgot)

An interesting one this isn’t it. Never happened to me IIRC but I can see how it could. I think that I’d have said ‘sorry, but we are not playing out as you’ll know what you have to score to equal or beat us - sorry - so unless you tell us that you are out the hole then you’ll have to decide what you are going to do and play before we continue’.

 

[salfordlad]

This scenario has been explicitly covered on the USGA Rules Facebook discussion page (10/11/20). When one person is in the creek in 4BBB match play and waits until all others have finished play, it is too late to go back. That is, a statement by a player that they will only play again if their partner messes up has no relevance if that player fails to play in a permitted order.

 

[rulefan]

This scenario has been explicitly covered on the USGA Rules Facebook discussion page (10/11/20). When one person is in the creek in 4BBB match play and waits until all others have finished play, it is too late to go back. That is, a statement by a player that they will only play again if their partner messes up has no relevance if that player fails to play in a permitted order.

Is the situation exactly the same as that in the Interpretation?

 

[chrisd]

This scenario has been explicitly covered on the USGA Rules Facebook discussion page (10/11/20). When one person is in the creek in 4BBB match play and waits until all others have finished play, it is too late to go back. That is, a statement by a player that they will only play again if their partner messes up has no relevance if that player fails to play in a permitted order.

As his partner was always nearer the hole surely he always had the right to play first for his pair?

 

[chrisd]

An interesting one this isn’t it. Never happened to me IIRC but I can see how it could. I think that I’d have said ‘sorry, but we are not playing out as you’ll know what you have to score to equal or beat us - sorry - so unless you tell us that you are out the hole then you’ll have to decide what you are going to do and play before we continue’.

An interesting point but what if he said that he was entitled to play the way described under the rules. Without knowing for certain I couldn't/wouldn't argue as I thought that he could do what he said without penalty. Neither player was knowledgeable about the rules as became clear later in the match

 

[Colin L]

This scenario has been explicitly covered on the USGA Rules Facebook discussion page (10/11/20). When one person is in the creek in 4BBB match play and waits until all others have finished play, it is too late to go back. That is, a statement by a player that they will only play again if their partner messes up has no relevance if that player fails to play in a permitted order.

The USGA comment was in response to this question:
A/B will get a par (5). C dumps his 3rd shot into a pond right of the green, walks to the back of the green, not intending to finish the hole. D three putts (unexpected!) gets 6 and the match is all square. As all players are walking to their carts heading to a playoff, C/D realizes that C can go to the drop area and jar it for a 5 to win the match. Do we let him play out the hole?

That is not the situation Chris describes. His opponent did not state or imply that he was not going to finish the hole but on the contrary explicitly stated that he would play if necessary. The implications of that statement and the question of whether the consequential playing out of order was agreed to by Chris's partner need to be explored. For instance, would that statement mean that Int 23.6/1 isn't applicable? Are we looking only at the matter of playing out of turn?

Thinking about it.

 

[BubbaP]

May be off piste but in my head first you determine which team us 'away' to play, then within that team they decide who plays. If they guy in the pond hasn't put his ball back in play then doesn't that affect the order?

 

[jim8flog]

I played a 4bbb match yesterday and a question arose

Playing a 125 yard par 3 my partner was on the green for one, one of our opponents also on in one, I was just off the green in one and their 2nd player dumped his tee shot in the pond in front of the green. The guy in the pond didn't drop a ball as he thought his partner would make a 3.

I chipped on a bit strong and made 4, my partner 3 putted for 4 and so did their player who was on (all a bit clumsy). The player who was in the pond then announced that, as he could drop a ball and still make 3 if he chipped in, started to walk back but was told by his partner not to bother as we'd halved and he was very unlikely to pull the shot off.

My partner was convinced that as he'd missed his turn he couldn't play because he knew how the hole had finished which gave him an advantage, I felt he could and said I'd check to be certain, my reasoning being that when it was their turn to play their player nearest the hole could play first as many times as he needed to and the other player wasnt obliged to drop a ball until it was his turn.

Who was right ?

One of the bits of advice for the future is that guy with a ball in the pond should drop a ball and stay with it, as you the say his partner can continue until he has holed out. The player can then decide whether or not to play the ball he dropped.

 

[chrisd]

One of the bits of advice for the future is that guy with a ball in the pond should drop a ball and stay with it, as you the say his partner can continue until he has holed out. The player can then decide whether or not to play the ball he dropped.

But it's not for me to tell him what action to take . I had enough problems later with issues that I was more certain of the rules

 

[mikejohnchapman]

The USGA comment was in response to this question:
A/B will get a par (5). C dumps his 3rd shot into a pond right of the green, walks to the back of the green, not intending to finish the hole. D three putts (unexpected!) gets 6 and the match is all square. As all players are walking to their carts heading to a playoff, C/D realizes that C can go to the drop area and jar it for a 5 to win the match. Do we let him play out the hole?

That is not the situation Chris describes. His opponent did not state or imply that he was not going to finish the hole but on the contrary explicitly stated that he would play if necessary. The implications of that statement and the question of whether the consequential playing out of order was agreed to by Chris's partner need to be explored. For instance, would that statement mean that Int 23.6/1 isn't applicable? Are we looking only at the matter of playing out of turn?

Thinking about it.

Undue delay?

 

[Colin L]

Undue delay?

In what way has play been delayed?

 

[rulefan]

The USGA comment was in response to this question:
A/B will get a par (5). C dumps his 3rd shot into a pond right of the green, walks to the back of the green, not intending to finish the hole. D three putts (unexpected!) gets 6 and the match is all square. As all players are walking to their carts heading to a playoff, C/D realizes that C can go to the drop area and jar it for a 5 to win the match. Do we let him play out the hole?

That is not the situation Chris describes. His opponent did not state or imply that he was not going to finish the hole but on the contrary explicitly stated that he would play if necessary. The implications of that statement and the question of whether the consequential playing out of order was agreed to by Chris's partner need to be explored. For instance, would that statement mean that Int 23.6/1 isn't applicable? Are we looking only at the matter of playing out of turn?

Thinking about it.

not intending to finish the hole.

I think those words are key

 

[chrisd]

In what way has play been delayed?

The pond was right in front of the green, it would have taken 30 seconds to walk from the green to where he would drop from. I cant see undue delay being argued

 

[Kellfire]

The pond was right in front of the green, it would have taken 30 seconds to walk from the green to where he would drop from. I cant see undue delay being argued

If he hasn’t dropped a ball then there is no ball in play at the time of his partner making a four. Does this then make the hole complete?