Matchplay 4bbb - ball hits ball on putting green

[Jono_3]

Hi All

I was having a chat with a member of our club yesterday. He said he was playing in a 4bbb matchplay. Player A and B vs Player C and D. It was on the 18th hole and A and B were 1 down.

Player A made a putt from the putting green and hit player B's ball which hadn't been marked and lifted. Players C and D asserted that meant loss of hole for both players and claimed the match. A and B never contested it and so the result was agreed as a win for C and D.

I am not convinced that was right. Looking at rule 11.1a there is only a penalty (of 2 strokes) in stroke play. I believe there is no penalty for hitting your opponents ball under these circumstances in matchplay but I cannot find any rulings about hitting your own partner's ball. I would have thought even if there was a penalty it was against player A and not player B, which I believe is what it would be if for example a wrong ball was played.

Can anyone help shed any light on what the ruling would be?

Cheers

 

[Maninblack4612]

No penalty

 

[Colin L]

That was most unfortunate for A and B. There is no penalty in match play [11.1a]. A plays his ball as it lies [Rule 11.1b Exception 2] and B replaces his ball [Rule 9.6]

 

[mikejohnchapman]

At what point does backstopping come into play - could the opponents demand the ball at rest be marked?

 

[rulie]

At what point does backstopping come into play - could the opponents demand the ball at rest be marked?

Yes, as per Rule 15.3a, and, if requested, the ball must be marked and lifted.

 

[jim8flog]

Hi All

I would have thought even if there was a penalty it was against player A and not player B, which I believe is what it would be if for example a wrong ball was played.



Cheers

You are right with this assertion as a general guide rules infringement by one player in a side only affect that player and not their partner. (There are some exceptions to this).

 

[Jono_3]

That was most unfortunate for A and B. There is no penalty in match play [11.1a]. A plays his ball as it lies [Rule 11.1b Exception 2] and B replaces his ball [Rule 9.6]

That's really useful. I've explained to him and he's not too pleased ...it was a semi final match as well.

Also good point about the backstop question and the answer for that. Really useful. From what I can gather then, if a player/opponent refuses to mark and lift a ball when requested to do so under 15.3 that means general penalty/loss of hole. If this was the case with A & B vs C & D, lets say C asked B to mark and he/she refused. Would this mean loss of hole for A & B or loss of hole for B with A still able to play?

 

[rulie]

That's really useful. I've explained to him and he's not too pleased ...it was a semi final match as well.

Also good point about the backstop question and the answer for that. Really useful. From what I can gather then, if a player/opponent refuses to mark and lift a ball when requested to do so under 15.3 that means general penalty/loss of hole. If this was the case with A & B vs C & D, lets say C asked B to mark and he/she refused. Would this mean loss of hole for A & B or loss of hole for B with A still able to play?

See part of Interpretation 23.8a(2)/1 below:
23.8a(2)/1 – Examples of When Player’s Breach Helps Partner’s Play
In both Four-Ball match play and stroke play, when a player’s breach of a Rule helps his or her partner, the partner gets the same penalty.
Examples of when both partners of side A-B get the same penalty include:

• With side A-B playing side C-D, Player B’s ball is near the hole and in a position to help Player A aim his or her putt. Player C requires Player B to mark and lift Player B’s ball. Player B declines to lift the ball and Player A putts with Player B’s ball helping him or her to aim.

Player B gets the general penalty under Rule 15.3a (Ball on Putting Green Helping Play) for failing to lift the helping ball and, since this helped Player A, Player A also gets the general penalty.

 

[backwoodsman]

Regarding the answer to the original question - ie that there is no penalty - is that a change brought in with the 2019 rules? (Was it something that used to incur a penalty?)

 

[Maninblack4612]

Regarding the answer to the original question - ie that there is no penalty - is that a change brought in with the 2019 rules? (Was it something that used to incur a penalty?)

No, that's been the rule for a long time.

 

[backwoodsman]

No, that's been the rule for a long time.

Ok, ta.
I was just wondering why the oppo' were thinking it was a penalty? Was it a penalty at some stage in the more distant past. If so, when did it change? Or is it just that they were likely just confusing strokeplay/matchplay rules?

 

[Maninblack4612]

Ok, ta.
I was just wondering why the oppo' were thinking it was a penalty? Was it a penalty at some stage in the more distant past. If so, when did it change? Or is it just that they were likely just confusing strokeplay/matchplay rules?

Just confusing it with strokeplay rules, I would guess. I did it myself a couple of years ago, picked my ball up before realising I still had a putt for a half. I've been playing for 65 years & I'm sure that the rule has been the same all that time.

 

[Swango1980]

Ok, ta.
I was just wondering why the oppo' were thinking it was a penalty? Was it a penalty at some stage in the more distant past. If so, when did it change? Or is it just that they were likely just confusing strokeplay/matchplay rules?

As maninblack says, it is most likely just one of those things that player's don't realise some of the more subtle differences in the rules between stroke play and match play.

 

[rulie]

Just confusing it with strokeplay rules, I would guess. I did it myself a couple of years ago, picked my ball up before realising I still had a putt for a half. I've been playing for 65 years & I'm sure that the rule has been the same all that time.

In terms of experience playing, I'm a couple years short of your 65, but agree that it's been that way for match play for a long while. Actually, I believe that, in match play, the player could insist that the opponent's ball not be marked and lifted, that the player "controlled" the opponents ball, but I don't have the evidence to support that. Edit: see below,
The Stymie
A stymie was possible only in matches involving one ball per side. On the putting green, if two players' balls were more than six inches apart, there was no provision for the ball nearer the hole to be lifted. If that ball lay directly in the way to the hole of the ball to be played then the player was 'stymied.'
He could try to play around or over the interfering ball, but if the nearer ball was struck, no penalty ensued. However, the opponent had the option of playing the ball as it lay or replacing it. If the nearer ball had been knocked into the hole the opponent was considered to have holed out with his previous stroke.
The stymie was really born by default. In the original rules of 1744 only when balls were touching could one be lifted.
This was adjusted by the Gentlemen Golfers Of Leith in 1775 to touching or within 6 inches of each other.
1789 Gentlemen Golfers introduced this rule: 'In all time coming, in case in playing over the links any ball shall lye in the way of his opponent's the distance of six inches upon the hole green, it shall be in the power of the party playing to cause his opponent to move said ball'.
1812: St Andrews re-worded the rule slightly, but the principle of the stymie remained: 'When the balls lie within six inches of one another, the ball nearest the hole must be lifted till the other is played, but on the putting green it shall not be lifted, although within six inches, unless it lie directly between the other and the hole'.
1830 Montrose code specified that the rule did not apply to stroke play or four-balls.
Sept 1833 St Andrews Golfers voted to abolish it, but it was reinstated the following year (by the now R&A) as 'When the balls lie within six inches of each other in any situation the ball nearest the hole to be lifted until the other is played'.
The word stymie only appeared in the rules rarely: Musselburgh 1834, 1851 and 1858 R&A, applied to all stroke play. The USGA used the term in notes to Rule 31 in 1938 and 1947. However, all the rules books of the 20th century, up to its abolition, used 'Stymie' in the index.
1891 R&A rules vaguely tried to remove the stymie from stroke play, stating that the ball may be lifted by the owner if he felt that it may be of advantage to the other player, or 'throughout the green' a player could have any ball lifted which might interfere with his stroke - but 'throughout the green' was not defined.
1899 Stroke Rule 11 and Medal Rule 9 stated the same thing.
The wording was made much clearer in 1902.
1920 USGA had a one-year trial of allowing the stymied player to concede his opponent's next putt.
1938 USGA introduced a modified stymie rule, initially for a trial period of two years, allowing a ball within 6 ins of the hole to be lifted if it was interfering, regardless of distance between balls. The rule was subsequently made permanent from 1941.
1950 abolished by USGA completely, but the organisations affiliated to the R&A were not inclined to do away with it.
Finally abolished worldwide in the joint rules of 1952. Now, lifting on the putting green was at option of owner or opponent if it was felt that the ball would interfere or be of assistance.
1956 In match play, the rule was changed such that the ball nearer the hole could only be lifted at the request of the player about to play. In effect, the player about to play had 'control' over his opponent's ball.
From 1984, a ball may be lifted if it may interfere with or assist another player in all forms of play.
A small echo of the stymie can still be found in the Rules - on the putting green if a player's putt strikes an opponent's ball, there is no penalty in match play but it's a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

 

[Jono_3]

Just confusing it with strokeplay rules, I would guess. I did it myself a couple of years ago, picked my ball up before realising I still had a putt for a half. I've been playing for 65 years & I'm sure that the rule has been the same all that time.

I agree. I think someone was thinking "two strokes = general penalty = loss of hole", and I think it's a common assumption that a penalty against one means a penalty against both playing partners. I also think if that person is more experienced in golf (as they are) and they assert that is the rules then you're likely to go along with it and agree.

A lot of golfers don't sit and study the rules, they learn as they go, and if something arises that they haven't experienced they don't know what to do and rely on others.

I remember playing in a regional comp a few years ago, 4 teams and a player from each club in a 4 ball. One player's ball was on the apron of the green and right on my line. I asked him to mark it and he refused, saying he can't do that because it's not on the green. He was a 7 handicap so wasn't exactly new to the game. I had to show him the rules (or could have given him a shot penalty ) before he agreed.

 

[Swango1980]

I agree. I think someone was thinking "two strokes = general penalty = loss of hole", and I think it's a common assumption that a penalty against one means a penalty against both playing partners. I also think if that person is more experienced in golf (as they are) and they assert that is the rules then you're likely to go along with it and agree.

A lot of golfers don't sit and study the rules, they learn as they go, and if something arises that they haven't experienced they don't know what to do and rely on others.

I remember playing in a regional comp a few years ago, 4 teams and a player from each club in a 4 ball. One player's ball was on the apron of the green and right on my line. I asked him to mark it and he refused, saying he can't do that because it's not on the green. He was a 7 handicap so wasn't exactly new to the game. I had to show him the rules (or could have given him a shot penalty ) before he agreed.

I played with a 6 handicap golfer a few years ago, who had been playing decades. When taking an unplayable, he was convinced that he got 2 club lengths from the hedge his ball was in, not from where the ball lay within the hedge. He wasn't happy that I said he was incorrect, because 2 club lengths from the ball meant he would still pretty much be in the hedge after his drop, or at best have no swing at all.

Many golfers struggle with the most basic and common rules, because as you said, they do not study the rules. Just pick them up through word of mouth. In stroke play you get a penalty if you hit someone else's ball on the green after a putt, and so it is perfectly reasonable for a golfer to assume the same incident would require a penalty in match play. I wouldn't at all be surprised if a few professional golfers didn't even realise this.

 

[rulefan]

I played with a 6 handicap golfer a few years ago, who had been playing decades. When taking an unplayable, he was convinced that he got 2 club lengths from the hedge his ball was in, not from where the ball lay within the hedge. He wasn't happy that I said he was incorrect, because 2 club lengths from the ball meant he would still pretty much be in the hedge after his drop, or at best have no swing at all.

There are so many people who only catch the words 'two club lengths' or 'back on the line' and then misunderstand the rest of the words. Which are not 'from the bush' or 'of flight'