Liverpool FC's dilemma

[A1ex]

What relevence does the above have to your point ?? the min i read this i just lost intrest in the rest of your reply , i did read it but this just put me off .. if you wana have a debate over something then debate whats going on & leave thesilly comments aside if you wana be taken seriously ..

Erm....it has everything to do with it. As Liverbirdie had mentioned the main reason people were going on about it was it was Liverpool involved.

It's not a club thing, anyone would be getting stick for handling it the way it has been. The former chairman of the Kick It Out campaign has been the one giving Liverpool more stick than any fans for example.

Oh and let me sum up some footy fans for ya , players are abused when they play for their clubs by some oposing fans then supported by the same fans when they put in a good performance for their countries ..

Fans this worried about stuff , start in your own club (yes its in every club) & when ya fix it there then HELP out other clubs to do the same in a positive way ..

I know football fans, I was a season ticket holder at my local team for over a decade. Of course theres scum in every fanbase, without a doubt. Most clubs weed out these turnips and do a good job. However when the actual club at boardroom level treats a serious issue in such a poor manner theres every reason to question it.

 

[A1ex]

Not paranoid fella, just railing agaisnt this sudden faux moral conscience that has suddenly come from most daft footy fans,as well as defending LFC, where I feel it needs defending, but not defending the indefensible.

If people want to campaign against rascism, good, I agree with it. But do it for the right reasons, not just to kick a rival. If people are suddenly jumping on a bandwagon, through insincere reasons, then it will only put a campaign back in the long run, as when all this blows over, they will just move on to something else.

I agree using a serious issue to score cheap points is wrong. Theres many independant figures putting the boot in, as you call it. Not just rival fans.

Just think for a second....if Chelsea had come out with t-shirts saying Terry was innocent and had their manager trying to discredit Anton Ferdinand in the press, you'd find they'd be in the firing line. It's nothing to do with Liverpool, it could be any club and they'd be getting stick.

Even though we are not winning things, I think you will still find LFC is a big scalp. I think I speak to more LFC fans than you on a daily basis, and probably more that go the match.

Do you not think there is an insincere aspect to thousands of Man U fans going on internet forums, mainly to stick the boot in, and using race as a vehicle for this. Probably the same hypocrites who sing loads of anti-scouse songs, but have Rooney as a hero.

Liverpool are big scalp on the pitch for sure. This is off it, which is totally different. No one would go out of their way to slate Liverpool for unknown reasons. Many people prefer you to the other top sides.

Not sure what Man Utd fans are saying, I only browse Championship and lower league forums. No doubt Man Utd fans would be giving Liverpool plenty of abuse though.

Gimme a good round of golf over paying £30 to sit next to some moron hurling abuse at someone he doesn't know because he happens to play or support a different team :cheers:

 

[bluewolf]

Gimme a good round of golf over paying £30 to sit next to some moron hurling abuse at someone he doesn't know because he happens to play or support a different team :cheers:

This rings true with me. I spent many years following the 'tics through the lower leagues. Days out at Millwall, Stoke, Carlisle, Oldham etc. I never got inot too much trouble because I wasn't there for the violence, just the sesh and the game.. BUT, Wigan into the premier league coincided with my little man being born. I carried on going to the games with the lads for a year (without the sesh obviously), but when Joel was old enough to follow the game a bit I wanted to take him and introduce him to my boyhood love. Unfortunately, the Everton fans who decided to apply for tickets in the family stand made absolutely sure that I regretted it instantly.

I never noticed the bile that some fans are used to spouting, home and away.. Maybe I was just used to it. The Stewards and Police are loathe to do anything as they don't want to make it worse. If you think that Racism/Sexism etc etc have vastly diminished then you're imagining it. I made the mistake of going to an old firm game a few years ago while I was visiting friends in Balloch... Never again...

As stated, give me a round of golf, or even an RL game (the fans are much better) over a trip to most Football grounds these days...

 

[bladeplayer]

It's not a club thing, anyone would be getting stick for handling it the way it has been. The former chairman of the Kick It Out campaign has been the one giving Liverpool more stick than any fans for example.



.

If as you continualy & rightly by the way say its not a club thing, im wondering what relevence your comments had thats all..


"You're a fairly harmless club that doesn't win much these days. You're not that relevant. Fans across the board are more anti sides that continue to win things or buy success through sugar daddies."


Its not a club thing but yet you felt the need to slag off the club anyhow , what does whether you regard Liverpool been relevant or not go to do with the issue at hand ? , that was my point, i was not agreeing with or disagreeing with you but to me entering this part made you seem as anti Liverpool club & therfore took the creedence of what you said next . ..

 

[A1ex]

If as you continualy & rightly by the way say its not a club thing, im wondering what relevence your comments had thats all..


"You're a fairly harmless club that doesn't win much these days. You're not that relevant. Fans across the board are more anti sides that continue to win things or buy success through sugar daddies."


Its not a club thing but yet you felt the need to slag off the club anyhow , what does whether you regard Liverpool been relevant or not go to do with the issue at hand ? , that was my point, i was not agreeing with or disagreeing with you but to me entering this part made you seem as anti Liverpool club & therfore took the creedence of what you said next . ..

I didn't slag Liverpool off. Slagging something off involves using insults, not saying a club is harmless. If I was being anti anyone if it was the sugar daddy clubs.

The comments were relevant as Liverbirdie was talking as if Liverpool were viewed as Millwall.

 

[Scouser]

, followed by an apology but not directly to Scouser or yourself. Just in general.

Then I'll expect no other repercussions and the whole incident to be forgotten.

Please dont worry about an apology I am sure most Liverpool fans will understand that you have your own issues that are personal to you.... because I for one understand everybody is an individual.

 

[Liverbirdie]

A1ex, As I've said before, this has been handled badly by LFC, and the whole suarez incident is not something us LFC fans are proud of. We have defended our club against the extreme and comical views bandied about by some fans, as I have seen here (see dippy Dave's comments about most LFC fans being neanderthals, as an example on general footy internet forums).

I just hate the bandwagon jumpers who normally couldn't care about race, using it insincerely to bash us. Bladeplayer and bluewolf has mentioned some very salient points, and I could not have put it better myself, and these are not LFC fans. I could talk to lads like that all day, no matter which team they support.

Just over the relevance comment. All clubs are relevant, whether to their local community (St.Pauli), class or job (lokomotiv Moscow representing the railway workers in Moscow, which has 12 teams), city (Newcastle geordie nation), area (Barcelona, virtually representing the catalan nation), and possibly internationally such as Celtic who have a massive fanbase. If you only judge a club's relevance on trophies won, that is a sad indictment of today's football fan.

BTW fair play at least you've came back on and debated your points, unlike some who come on , post some crap, and when they are met with counter arguments, of a sensible kind, then do one.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I didn't slag Liverpool off. Slagging something off involves using insults, not saying a club is harmless. If I was being anti anyone if it was the sugar daddy clubs.

The comments were relevant as Liverbirdie was talking as if Liverpool were viewed as Millwall.

A1ex do you want some ketchup for that mighty chip on your shoulder. I'm a Fulham fan first and foremost and a football fan in general second. Not sure what you mean by Liverpool not being relevant. I'm sure if City or United lose to Liverpool when they meet them again and then lose by a point or two they'll be seen as extremely relevant.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the whole Suarez incident and the way the FA and Liverpool (on and off the pitch) handled it, it doesn't preclude from the fact that racism is still there throughout the game and that you can go to any league ground in England ad Scotland and will experience comments to opposition fans and players that would be arrestable offences if they weren't within the confines of a football stadium where the police seem to have discretionary hearing and seem oblivious to the taunts.

Suffice to say what happened between Suarez and Evra probably happens at all levels. It was certainly prevanlent in the 80's and 90's on the pitch and is probably on every pitch on a Sunday morning. Sadly racism is a cancer within society and it is the way these high profile cases get handled that makes i harder and harder to eradicate. The Terry affair will be the next interesting one and I wonder what FA punishment will be meted out over and above any custodial sentence. At the end of the day is what Terry did any different to the Suarez case

 

[Shaunmg]

As a lifelong Neanderthal Liverpool fan myself, and a man who has brought his children to up shun racism and intolerance. I also abhor injustice.

On discussing this case with my barrister daughter, who by the way hates football with a passion. She is without doubt that had Suarez been tried in a criminal court he would not have been found guilty. So no wonder, that unlike Terry he was not charged.

In the British justice system a person can only found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. One man’s word against another, with no other evidence, would not be anywhere near enough to secure a conviction.

Suarez was found guilty using a system not accepted in any civilized democratic country. That is; on a balance of probability. He was judged to be probably guilty, on the evidence of 150 pages of hearsay.

That is why Liverpool and the fans are so angry. If there were evidence, either witness or video, I would be amongst the first calling for Suarez to be kicked out.

Liverpool knew it would be futile appealing against such a flawed form of justice. They timed the announcement so Suarez would in fact miss 4 cup ties and just 4 premiership games, then return for the crucial Man Utd and Spurs games

Liverpool cannot be accused of hypocrisy between the Suarez and the Tom Adeyemi issues. Unlike Suarez, in the case of the young fan, there is clear video and witness evidence, other than just Adeyemi’s word

 

[Hobbit]

As a lifelong Neanderthal Liverpool fan myself, and a man who has brought his children to up shun racism and intolerance. I also abhor injustice.

On discussing this case with my barrister daughter, who by the way hates football with a passion. She is without doubt that had Suarez been tried in a criminal court he would not have been found guilty. So no wonder, that unlike Terry he was not charged.

In the British justice system a person can only found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. One man’s word against another, with no other evidence, would not be anywhere near enough to secure a conviction.

Suarez was found guilty using a system not accepted in any civilized democratic country. That is; on a balance of probability. He was judged to be probably guilty, on the evidence of 150 pages of hearsay.

That is why Liverpool and the fans are so angry. If there were evidence, either witness or video, I would be amongst the first calling for Suarez to be kicked out.

Liverpool knew it would be futile appealing against such a flawed form of justice. They timed the announcement so Suarez would in fact miss 4 cup ties and just 4 premiership games, then return for the crucial Man Utd and Spurs games

Liverpool cannot be accused of hypocrisy between the Suarez and the Tom Adeyemi issues. Unlike Suarez, in the case of the young fan, there is clear video and witness evidence, other than just Adeyemi’s word

But Suarez admitted saying it, ergo he's guilty.

He further qualified that by saying that in Uraguayan Spanish it means mate or pal - Google it, then Google the Mexican Spanish version. Liverpool supported this aspect of his defence. However, in the UK it is deemed racist, therefore he's still guilty.

He has pleaded ignorance of its meaning in the UK, and Europe, but whether thats the truth or not doesn't really matter. As your barrister daughter will tell you, ignorance is not a defence in UK law.

 

[Shaunmg]

But Suarez admitted saying it, ergo he's guilty.

He further qualified that by saying that in Uraguayan Spanish it means mate or pal - Google it, then Google the Mexican Spanish version. Liverpool supported this aspect of his defence. However, in the UK it is deemed racist, therefore he's still guilty.

He has pleaded ignorance of its meaning in the UK, and Europe, but whether thats the truth or not doesn't really matter. As your barrister daughter will tell you, ignorance is not a defence in UK law.

We have been over this ground before, he admitted nothing. He completely denied using a racist remark. Nowhere in 115 page is statement there any reference being made to him admitting guilt. You have been reading trashy press comments and not the facts.

The report said he used it 7 times in 3 minutes. How do they know that? Where’s the evidence? other than Evra’s word

The report acknowledges the word used “negrito” can be used in a friendly and an offensive manner. They chose to interpret it as the latter. Suarez defence was it was used only once in a conciliatory manner following an earlier clash between them.

The video evidence clearly shows Suarez holding out a hand touching Evra’s arm, which seems to be a conciliatory gesture, and Evra knocking it away. Yet the commission interpreted it as making reference to the colour of his skin. For god’s sake! They even seem to know what he was thinking.

The report also acknowledged if Suarez had not intended racial offence he could not be guilty, so your comment on ignorance of the law is a non issue. They judged he probably did mean it as offensive

Would you really like to live in a society where judgement was made on balance of probabilities and not one of, beyond reasonable doubt

 

[Hobbit]

We have been over this ground before, he admitted nothing. He completely denied using a racist remark. Nowhere in 115 page is statement there any reference being made to him admitting guilt. You have been reading trashy press comments and not the facts.

The report said he used it 7 times in 3 minutes. How do they know that? Where’s the evidence? other than Evra’s word

The report acknowledges the word used “negrito” can be used in a friendly and an offensive manner. They chose to interpret it as the latter. Suarez defence was it was used only once in a conciliatory manner following an earlier clash between them.

The video evidence clearly shows Suarez holding out a hand touching Evra’s arm, which seems to be a conciliatory gesture, and Evra knocking it away. Yet the commission interpreted it as making reference to the colour of his skin. For god’s sake! They even seem to know what he was thinking.

The report also acknowledged if Suarez had not intended racial offence he could not be guilty, so your comment on ignorance of the law is a non issue. They judged he probably did mean it as offensive

Would you really like to live in a society where judgement was made on balance of probabilities and not one of, beyond reasonable doubt

He admitted using the word but not in a racist manner. Note, "he admitted..." The report also concluded that it wasn't meant in a racisit way and that Suarez isn't a racisit. As for "the evidence clearly shows Suarez holding out a hand..." He admitted pinching his arm. Note, "he admitted..." This is a common tactic in Europe, i.e. making the guy being pinched lash out in front of the Ref. Personally I think the length of the ban harsh but at the end of the day "he admitted...", and his defence of ignorance doesn't wash. Not quite sure where you get the beyond reasonable doubt from when he actually admitted the use of the word. I think the length of ban harsh but he deserves a ban.

I suppose using your logic, if he was caught doing 40 in a 30 but said it was ok in Uraguay he should then be let off...

 

[Shaunmg]

He admitted using the word but not in a racist manner. Note, "he admitted..." The report also concluded that it wasn't meant in a racisit way and that Suarez isn't a racisit. As for "the evidence clearly shows Suarez holding out a hand..." He admitted pinching his arm. Note, "he admitted...".

Sorry but you're wrong again. I take it you are refering to page 5 paragraph 6 of the report with reference to pinching. Read it again, there is no addmission from Suarez, it is a claim from Evra with no video evidence.

Take a look at this incident of the lying Evra in the same game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH50lwwBRms

This credible witness was the same man banned for four matches in an incident when he accused a Chelsea grounds man of racial abuse and also levelled the same charge against Steve Finnan, both dismissed. The man has history. Evra's problem in that game was Suarez was ripping the back out of him throughout the game.

Answer me this question, why was Suarez not charged like Terry? actually don't bother I think we all know the answer. No witness and no evidence

 

[A1ex]

A1ex, As I've said before, this has been handled badly by LFC, and the whole suarez incident is not something us LFC fans are proud of. We have defended our club against the extreme and comical views bandied about by some fans, as I have seen here (see dippy Dave's comments about most LFC fans being neanderthals, as an example on general footy internet forums).

I just hate the bandwagon jumpers who normally couldn't care about race, using it insincerely to bash us. Bladeplayer and bluewolf has mentioned some very salient points, and I could not have put it better myself, and these are not LFC fans. I could talk to lads like that all day, no matter which team they support.

Just over the relevance comment. All clubs are relevant, whether to their local community (St.Pauli), class or job (lokomotiv Moscow representing the railway workers in Moscow, which has 12 teams), city (Newcastle geordie nation), area (Barcelona, virtually representing the catalan nation), and possibly internationally such as Celtic who have a massive fanbase. If you only judge a club's relevance on trophies won, that is a sad indictment of today's football fan.

BTW fair play at least you've came back on and debated your points, unlike some who come on , post some crap, and when they are met with counter arguments, of a sensible kind, then do one.

To be fair, bladeplayer and bluewolf didn't even know some of the major points of the case so their opinion isn't really the best barometer on this issue.

Your view on it is actually refreshing to see in many parts. It was just the bit about everyone only making a fuss as it was Liverpool I really disagreed with you on. You're Liverpool FC, not Millwall....

My relevant comment was taken out of conext also. Every club is relevent to a certain level. My point was in the context you were talking Liverpool weren't relevant to being disliked. Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City are far more disliked than Liverpool, due to their recent success, as football fans are often jealous creatures.

I think rivalry played its ugly part in this, not sure if you agree. If Suarez had insulted a player from Wigan or Swansea, Liverpool would've apologised for a misunderstanding and taken a smaller hit of 4 games. Because it was their big rivals they didn't want to see them get one over on them. The months and months of bad press have actually tarnished Suarez's image far more than the actual incident.

 

[A1ex]

The Terry affair will be the next interesting one and I wonder what FA punishment will be meted out over and above any custodial sentence. At the end of the day is what Terry did any different to the Suarez case

Terry's defence is slightly different and it's a legal case. It's more serious than the Suarez incident.

If he gets convicted, he's screwed. He'll be a convicted racist, which is different to Suarez. He'll lose all of his endorsments, never play for England again and get at least an 8 game ban and a huge fine from the FA.

 

[Liverbirdie]

To be fair, bladeplayer and bluewolf didn't even know some of the major points of the case so their opinion isn't really the best barometer on this issue.

Your view on it is actually refreshing to see in many parts. It was just the bit about everyone only making a fuss as it was Liverpool I really disagreed with you on. You're Liverpool FC, not Millwall....

My relevant comment was taken out of conext also. Every club is relevent to a certain level. My point was in the context you were talking Liverpool weren't relevant to being disliked. Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City are far more disliked than Liverpool, due to their recent success, as football fans are often jealous creatures.

I think rivalry played its ugly part in this, not sure if you agree. If Suarez had insulted a player from Wigan or Swansea, Liverpool would've apologised for a misunderstanding and taken a smaller hit of 4 games. Because it was their big rivals they didn't want to see them get one over on them. The months and months of bad press have actually tarnished Suarez's image far more than the actual incident.

Agree on a lot of that, but I think you were mis-understanding me on one point. I was not saying everyone was making the fuss that it was Liverpool, more that rival fans (in the main) were trying to bash LFC with it, but mainly from an insincere perspective.

3/4 of fans on footy forums where Man U fans (I know there is a lot of them about). Yes rivalry has had a big effect on it, as the temperature always raises five fold whenever LFC and Man U fans debate. There is still jealousy/hatred out there for LFC but not as much as with the teams that you mention, due to their recent success. The money aspect for man city and Chelsea, the overall hatred for Man U that most English footy fans have (not just LFC, although we are the worst).

 

[A1ex]

As a lifelong Neanderthal Liverpool fan myself, and a man who has brought his children to up shun racism and intolerance. I also abhor injustice.

On discussing this case with my barrister daughter, who by the way hates football with a passion. She is without doubt that had Suarez been tried in a criminal court he would not have been found guilty. So no wonder, that unlike Terry he was not charged.

A member of the public reported John Terry to the police. No one reported Suarez. That's the only reason why the Police didn't investigate Suarez. It's not that hard to grasp....

In the British justice system a person can only found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. One man’s word against another, with no other evidence, would not be anywhere near enough to secure a conviction.

The legal justice system is different to employment law and civil cases. Using your logic you're basically saying that workplace disputes should be heard by high courts and judges or they're wrong

Suarez is licensed to play in this country by the FA, they held a perfectly accepted and normal hearing and found him guilty. No different to someone who works for a bank going before that banks panel and being dismissed or fined.

Suarez was found guilty using a system not accepted in any civilized democratic country. That is; on a balance of probability. He was judged to be probably guilty, on the evidence of 150 pages of hearsay.

The system is accepted in employment cases the world over. Saying it isn't 100 times won't make you right.

That is why Liverpool and the fans are so angry. If there were evidence, either witness or video, I would be amongst the first calling for Suarez to be kicked out.

Liverpool knew it would be futile appealing against such a flawed form of justice. They timed the announcement so Suarez would in fact miss 4 cup ties and just 4 premiership games, then return for the crucial Man Utd and Spurs games

Suarez admitted using the term. He made reference to Evra's skin colour which is against the FA rules, hence why he was found guilty. That really is the bottom line.

You can make excuses all you like about a friendly meaning in Spanish. Just as someone could point out why would Suarez be acting in a friendly manner to a rival player who he's been engaged in a battle with during the entire game, and was on the verge of a physical confrontation with.

Or why Kuyt and Comolli changed their statements, or why Suarez contradicted his statement in the interview. Evra's story was the same from what he said to the ref at the time, to his teammates, his manager afterwards and to the panel at the hearing. Suarez's story changed and his evidence was deemed unreliable.

Theres been no injustice at all. If the evidence was so weak, Liverpool would've appealed. After going through such lengths to defend Suarez, to suddenly not appeal speaks volumes.

 

[A1ex]

Agree on a lot of that, but I think you were mis-understanding me on one point. I was not saying everyone was making the fuss that it was Liverpool, more that rival fans (in the main) were trying to bash LFC with it, but mainly from an insincere perspective.

3/4 of fans on footy forums where Man U fans (I know there is a lot of them about). Yes rivalry has had a big effect on it, as the temperature always raises five fold whenever LFC and Man U fans debate. There is still jealousy/hatred out there for LFC but not as much as with the teams that you mention, due to their recent success. The money aspect for man city and Chelsea, the overall hatred for Man U that most English footy fans have (not just LFC, although we are the worst).

On the rival issue, you can understand your rivals anger. Their player has been painted as a liar by your manager and fans. He's had threats made to him by Suarez's national teammate aswell, as because he was insulted. In football terms thats more than a green light to go on the offensive.

Have to say I'm looking forward to Liverpool v Man Utd in the FA Cup :fore:

 

[Liverbirdie]

On the rival issue, you can understand your rivals anger. Their player has been painted as a liar by your manager and fans. He's had threats made to him by Suarez's national teammate aswell, as because he was insulted. In football terms thats more than a green light to go on the offensive.

Have to say I'm looking forward to Liverpool v Man Utd in the FA Cup :fore:

Not if your just using the rascism card to score points to belittle a rival, then return to normal life as a bigotted, racist, homphobe.

Yes, it will be quite a game/atmosphere - hope it's all about the match though.

 

[Naybrains]

Cracking result tonight, what a difference with StevieG in the team.
Still be a toughie in the next round, even at Anfield.