Is the backswing important?

[Jamesbrown]

If you can deliver the club properly from an “off plane” open, closed, flat or steep position at the top, then it doesn’t matter. That’s an if!

Most mortals need to be in good positions in the back swing to be able to deliver the club affectively on the downswing.

 

[stefanovic]

So, gravity doesn't exist ................................. interesting.
I wish someone had told Isaac Newton.

Newton's law of gravity still works, based on the inverse square law, but it isn't quite accurate in a strong gravitational field. Newton provided the mathematics for Kepler's finding that the planets travel elliptically around the sun. However what Newton didn't know was the strange orbit of Mercury where it doesn't quite get back to where it started. He did ponder on why the planets do stay in a fixed orbit when they should move toward each other. Enter Einstein to provide a new theory of gravity (General Relativity) which perfectly described the orbit of Mercury and the movement of all planets, stars, black holes and galaxies. It even predicted Big Bang cosmology.

 

[chrisd]

Newton's law of gravity still works, based on the inverse square law, but it isn't quite accurate in a strong gravitational field. Newton provided the mathematics for Kepler's finding that the planets travel elliptically around the sun. However what Newton didn't know was the strange orbit of Mercury where it doesn't quite get back to where it started. He did ponder on why the planets do stay in a fixed orbit when they should move toward each other. Enter Einstein to provide a new theory of gravity (General Relativity) which perfectly described the orbit of Mercury and the movement of all planets, stars, black holes and galaxies. It even predicted Big Bang cosmology.

I didn't realise that it was all that simple 😀

 

[stefanovic]

Well at least the GR equation which explains how mass, energy and pressure control space time can be written down. Now try and find the equation for the golf swing, and it's certain to be more complicated.

 

[Foxholer]

Well at least the GR equation which explains how mass, energy and pressure control space time can be written down. Now try and find the equation for the golf swing, and it's certain to be more complicated.

Perhaps Prof Roy Kerr (aka Kerr Metric) might be able to help - he (still) plays golf, though only 9 holes, in his retirement - off an 18 index aged 73. He might say it was a bit of a black hole though!

On a more philosophical note... the ability of GR to explain/predict the aberration in the orbit of Mercury - truly confirmed after publication (and even really settled quite recently), demonstrates the 'power and truth' of scientific method! It's one of the (many) events that established Einstein as one of the truly great contributors to our understanding of the universe! Of course, there'll be further iterations that will 'simplify' our understanding of our universe (or multiverses!).

As for the golf swing...it can be described in a very complicted fashion - aka Jorgeson's #The Physics of Golf' and/or Homer Kelly's TGM style - or relatively simply as in Sacho McKenzie's '3 pendulum method'. If you really want to get into the 'science;, Dave Tutelman's articles are a 'great' resource. I especially like(d) Rod White's (yet another Kiwi physicist!) approach! Here's his summary of videos of Pros.....

The real golf swing is more like a triple pendulum with the ‘beam’ between the neck and the shoulder forming the third arm of the pendulum. While watching the videos, remember the essence of a good golf swing is the reverse of the ice skater effect – the transfer of energy with unfolding. The total power produced by the golfer (about 2.5 kW for a professional) comes from the biggest muscles in the body – the upper legs and torso. The problem is how to transfer this power, from the muscles, through the shoulders, arms, club, and eventually, to the ball.

The backswing

• consists of a large shoulder rotation against the hips to pretension the muscles of the torso.
• minimises the moment of inertia of the arms and the club by folding the left arm against the shoulders and cocking the wrists. In all cases the down swing begins with the left arm folded almost parallel with the shoulders, and the club typically cocked to 90 degrees.

The downswing movement

• leads with the large muscles of the legs and torso rotating and building momentum in the hips, with
• the whole folded system -- the upper body, shoulders, arms and club -- moving almost as one.
• Once the rotation is firmly established, the arms swing out – transferring energy from the body to the arms,
• then the club swings out, transferring energy to the club.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

My new teacher says that he isn't so concerned with the way I backswing but that I get to where i can make a good down swing. I've seen both Furyk and Daly live, and their backswings, whilst not being orthodox both led to wonderful positions in the downswing and a very tidy sum of prize money each

And the odd major as well

 

[Curls]

This thread got weird.

Bobs wisdom was almost the final word for me, to it I’d add that there is one really important aspect of the backswing and that’s tempo. Get the rhythm right from take away and if you’re in a good position before you start turning back towards the ball you’ve got most of the hard work done imo. How you get there is up to you, and we’ll all have different physicality etc in that regard

 

[stefanovic]

As for the golf swing...it can be described in a very complicated fashion

Thanks for all that reply. I never thought we'd be talking about multiverses, the prediction of eternal inflation.
I think the point I'm making is that sport cannot be described in the same way as physics, Even if you could predict the movement all atomic particles and determine what happens next (as in the swing), you would still fall down on the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (you'll never know absolute position and motion). As in this joke: Heisenberg gets pulled over for speeding. The traffic cop asks him if he knows what speed he was doing. Heisenberg says 'No, because I know exactly where I am'.
Or when the laconic Paul Dirac was asked by a reporter "Will it be all right if I put it this way - `Professor Dirac solves all the problems of mathematical physics, but is unable to find a better way of figuring out Babe Ruth's batting average'?"
Dirac's reply: Yes.

Forgetting the planet Mercury, if G/R was wrong, then consider that fairways and greens would need to be constantly repaired. There would be holes and foot indentations all over the place. Luckily, the ground rises to even it all out.

 

[Slime]

Thanks for all that reply. I never thought we'd be talking about multiverses, the prediction of eternal inflation.
I think the point I'm making is that sport cannot be described in the same way as physics, Even if you could predict the movement all atomic particles and determine what happens next (as in the swing), you would still fall down on the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (you'll never know absolute position and motion). As in this joke: Heisenberg gets pulled over for speeding. The traffic cop asks him if he knows what speed he was doing. Heisenberg says 'No, because I know exactly where I am'.
Or when the laconic Paul Dirac was asked by a reporter "Will it be all right if I put it this way - `Professor Dirac solves all the problems of mathematical physics, but is unable to find a better way of figuring out Babe Ruth's batting average'?"
Dirac's reply: Yes.

Forgetting the planet Mercury, if G/R was wrong, then consider that fairways and greens would need to be constantly repaired. There would be holes and foot indentations all over the place. Luckily, the ground rises to even it all out.

What medication are you on?

 

[stefanovic]

What medication are you on?

I find this comment regrettable. I've been on medication all my life for something I inherited and won't go away.
Guess I'll find another forum to debate golf.

 

[chrisd]

I find this comment regrettable. I've been on medication all my life for something I inherited and won't go away.
Guess I'll find another forum to debate golf.

I wouldn't get too upset, I'm sure Slime was just joking and wouldn't intend to cause offence. I've played golf with Slime and he really is a decent guy

 

[Slime]

I find this comment regrettable. I've been on medication all my life for something I inherited and won't go away.
Guess I'll find another forum to debate golf.

Genuinely no offence meant, stefanovic, but I really don't understand a word you are saying ......................... and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I was brought up believing that gravity existed!
You're obviously on a far higher cerebral plain than I but, please, try to explain things in a manner that ordinary people can understand in order to have a more reasoned debate.

 

[Slime]

I wouldn't get too upset, I'm sure Slime was just joking and wouldn't intend to cause offence. I've played golf with Slime and he really is a decent guy

Thanks chrisd, I appreciate that.

 

[TreeSeeker]

Better to avoid getting into physics here, and i feel obliged to add uncertainty shouldn't be factor here given the scale. We are really just talking mechanics.

And on the mechanics i would echo curl's post. Although i would add, for me, getting the backswing right is also about avoiding injury by reducing unnecessary strain.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I find this comment regrettable. I've been on medication all my life for something I inherited and won't go away.
Guess I'll find another forum to debate golf.

I am someone who admires those who have discovered and used the laws of physics to improve our lives on this planet. However, like Slime, my understanding of the finer and extreme points is not very near physics graduates etc.
But those acedemics have to be a bit careful to not be so serious in all their
conversations/written exchanges, that they fail to realise that all such conversations are not necessarily serious and literal. There is such a thing as vernacular and frivolity, and I'm sure that Slime was not being serious, but in a way, was paying you something of a compliment for your physics knowledge.
E.g you must have read/heard someone use the phrase " whatever he's on , I want some of it", when that someone is admiring him.
So, please lighten up, 😀 And stay.

 

[HappyHybrids]

What does matter is the moment of impact, needing timing and tempo.
However my backswing will decide how my shot goes simply because if I know it doesnt feel right I'm goose'd straight away. Possibly even more important for me is that fraction of a second at address moving into take away. Too often I start as if I've been jolted with 450v

I have a really slow backswing, like exaggerated slow. From the moment I begin to start the backswing until I transition to the downswing is at least 2 seconds, but its the only way i can hit consistently.

Too fast a backswing and I will always either top it or worse, have a fresh air swipe.

An interesting aside to this. I had a grip problem that was causing me to close the face at impact. Whilst the pro was trying to correct this issue during a lesson, he had me do a half backswing then hold. He told me to look back at what angle the club face was pointing at that moment, and then rotated the club head slightly and told me that is the angle it should be pointing at. He then told me, with the club suspended in mid-swing, to continue with the rest of the backswing and downswing and strike the ball. I thought there'd be no chance I'd hit it, but it ended up one of the cleanest hits I'd had til that point (much more consistent now thankfully).

I take from it that if you know your ideal release point for your downswing, then it will serve you as much use simply lifting the club in to that position, like a baseball player awaiting a fastball, as it would my super slow backswing. The only objective is to have your club face in a favourable position at the point of impact.

For some (me) a slow, consistent backswing is crucial to set up my downswing properly. For others, not so much.

 

[SocketRocket]

If your iron was a hammer and you wanted to drive a nail into the bottom of a door frame then how would you use the hammer. Our brains know how to direct our bodies as long as the task is clear to us. To drive a six inch nail into the frame would you take a back swing? Of course you would have to but you would not do it consciously, your brain would compute the momentum required and instruct your body to swing the hammer sufficiently to create a suitable impact.

 

[clubchamp98]

My teacher years ago said to me
The backswing needs to put the club in the right place to deliver it to the ball.
Like parking your car in a parking space , you need to place the car in certain positions to get it in the space.
Get it wrong and you can’t get the car in, get it right and it makes it easy to do,.
Always remembered that.

 

[Oddsocks]

It's an interesting question. For me, my backswing almost entirely governs what happens on my actual swing. Swing back too quickly, I get unbalanced and completely lose control of my body positioning. The result is virtually always a little white ball flying off to the next village on the right somewhere. Controlled back swing keeps me in control of my positioning, allowing me to really work through the ball. Result? Somewhere down the fairway (hopefully).

Yes, the important bit is c. 2" before the ball to c. 2" after, and what the clubhead is doing at that time. But for me, all the prep to get it doing the right thing, comes from being in control of my backswing and allowing myself to let rip on the actual swing.

I’m the same, on a day where my back swing is pure I play decent ish golf. On a bad backswing day I am forced to try and correct so many things in the downswing.