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Is it just me?

Hobbit

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There are, on average, 700 murders a year. The average time served is 16 years, although someone like Ian Huntley will serve a minimum of 40 years. Bearing in mind the average age of a murderer is 30, half of them will have been released by the age of 46.

There are, on average, a similar number (700) released on licence every year. Perhaps the most frightening thing is 46% will reoffend. However, there will be 3 murders from those who have murdered previously.

There are currently about 5000 people in prison for murder, at a cost of about £190,000,000. If murderers served life without parole the prison bill would be almost £800,000,000 = 0.1% of total govt spend. Cost isn't a valid argument for the death penalty, unless someone wants to say it equals 100,000 nurses.

Personally, I think a murderer should get life with no parole.
 

Papas1982

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There are, on average, 700 murders a year. The average time served is 16 years, although someone like Ian Huntley will serve a minimum of 40 years. Bearing in mind the average age of a murderer is 30, half of them will have been released by the age of 46.

There are, on average, a similar number (700) released on licence every year. Perhaps the most frightening thing is 46% will reoffend. However, there will be 3 murders from those who have murdered previously.

There are currently about 5000 people in prison for murder, at a cost of about £190,000,000. If murderers served life without parole the prison bill would be almost £800,000,000 = 0.1% of total govt spend. Cost isn't a valid argument for the death penalty, unless someone wants to say it equals 100,000 nurses.

Personally, I think a murderer should get life with no parole.

To be fair that's quite a bloody brilliant argument 👏👏

All I will say is that be it nurses, bus routes or lollipop ladies. 800,000,000 on anything would imo be more worthwhile than sustaining their lives. But I accept in regards to UK spend its quite insignificant. Whether its value is a different conversation though.
 
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There are, on average, 700 murders a year. The average time served is 16 years, although someone like Ian Huntley will serve a minimum of 40 years. Bearing in mind the average age of a murderer is 30, half of them will have been released by the age of 46.

There are, on average, a similar number (700) released on licence every year. Perhaps the most frightening thing is 46% will reoffend. However, there will be 3 murders from those who have murdered previously.

There are currently about 5000 people in prison for murder, at a cost of about £190,000,000. If murderers served life without parole the prison bill would be almost £800,000,000 = 0.1% of total govt spend. Cost isn't a valid argument for the death penalty, unless someone wants to say it equals 100,000 nurses.

Personally, I think a murderer should get life with no parole.

Exactly that - they won’t reoffend , but they are going to suffer for a long time


To be fair that's quite a bloody brilliant argument 👏👏

All I will say is that be it nurses, bus routes or lollipop ladies. 800,000,000 on anything would imo be more worthwhile than sustaining their lives. But I accept in regards to UK spend its quite insignificant. Whether its value is a different conversation though.

https://deathpenalty.org/facts/5-myths-death-penalty/

This another website which shows

It’s actually more expensive to pass the death penalty due to the whole process

The families actually don’t feel closure again due to the whole process of appeals etc

The death penalty would only be applied where there is no doubt. ie caught in the act.
Presumably you think there is no crime that warrants the death penalty?

I think the punishment of life without parole , solitary confinement, out of a cell for one hour a day will be a better punishment -and yes I don’t believe we should be able to lawfully kill someone as punishment
 

HomerJSimpson

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Exactly that - they won’t reoffend , but they are going to suffer for a long time
But they don't suffer. Look at the majority of prisoners locked away for murder, be it in solitary or on a wing. Most have access to some degree of mod cons and are getting three square meals a day and aside from losing their freedom aren't in my opinion really suffering. Certainly not like the families of the victims left to deal with their loss for the rest of their lives. Add in the massive cost to the taxpayer for keeping them locked up and I fail to see how a sentence with no parole is actually "suffering"
 

Papas1982

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Exactly that - they won’t reoffend , but they are going to suffer for a long time




https://deathpenalty.org/facts/5-myths-death-penalty/

This another website which shows

It’s actually more expensive to pass the death penalty due to the whole process

The families actually don’t feel closure again due to the whole process of appeals etc



I think the punishment of life without parole , solitary confinement, out of a cell for one hour a day will be a better punishment -and yes I don’t believe we should be able to lawfully kill someone as punishment
In regards the costs you show. That’s the us system. Do other countries have such stringent appeal systems?

If someone is proven guilty beyond doubt, which with today’s science is more likely. I simply wouldn’t put them on death row for 20 years. So it wouldn’t cost more to kill them than keep them alive. That also goes for the part about family closure. They wouldn’t have to sit through retrials they’d know that the person had been found guilty and punishment carried out.
 
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In regards the costs you show. That’s the us system. Do other countries have such stringent appeal systems?

If someone is proven guilty beyond doubt, which with today’s science is more likely. I simply wouldn’t put them on death row for 20 years. So it wouldn’t cost more to kill them than keep them alive. That also goes for the part about family closure. They wouldn’t have to sit through retrials they’d know that the person had been found guilty and punishment carried out.

It’s irreversible- once it’s done it’s done and still now people on death row are found to be Innocent- even without the appeals it’s still more expensive- then you can’t just remove the appeal process because it is such a final sentence.

Obviously Islamic countries - charged , sentence carried out with 24 hours no chance of appeal but then innocent people have been killed through the death penalty there - is that the ideals you want the UK to follow ? Same in China

The US states have those appeals in place for a reason.

And the families were asked about the Death Penalty - do you really think they would want the offender to be killed and get the quick way out ? Or have then be sat in a cell being punished for the rest of their life - it’s a life death sentance being left to rot knowing his life is over.
 

bobmac

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It’s irreversible- once it’s done it’s done and still now people on death row are found to be Innocent- even without the appeals it’s still more expensive- then you can’t just remove the appeal process because it is such a final sentence.

As I said before, the DP only applied where there is no doubt of guilt.

Obviously Islamic countries - charged , sentence carried out with 24 hours no chance of appeal but then innocent people have been killed through the death penalty there - is that the ideals you want the UK to follow ? Same in China

So in Islamic countries it's 24 hours and in America its 20 years.
Is there nothing in between?

And the families were asked about the Death Penalty - do you really think they would want the offender to be killed and get the quick way out ? Or have then be sat in a cell being punished for the rest of their life - it’s a life death sentence being left to rot knowing his life is over.

As Homer pointed out, they don't rot
 
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As I said before, the DP only applied where there is no doubt of guilt.
There have been times where there is no doubt - yet 5/10 years down the line they have been found innocent. How do you then tackle things like mental issues etc ?
So in Islamic countries it's 24 hours and in America its 20 years.
Is there nothing in between?

It’s still going to cost more and it’s still going to be a lengthy process , appeals take time etc - it’s a quick process

As Homer pointed out, they don't rot

They don’t live a life a luxury - it basics and if they have too much in terms of telly etc then remove that , change what happens in prison to ensure it’s a punishment- make sure these guys know there life is over. Is that not a better way ? Making the guys have a lifetime of locked behind bars with nothing but the bare minimum

But we have had this discussion and we all know the death penalty won’t ever return to the UK , civilised western countries are moving towards getting fully rid of it - I believe there is just one country in Europe that still has it
 

HomerJSimpson

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I disagree that they rot in prison even if the sentence is a full one with no parole. You only have to look at news reports of the level of comfort some of the worse murderers we've had in the UK including Shipman, West etc to see that they aren't rotting. They get fed three meals a day, have access to TV and radio and whether thats a solitary cell or not, I'd say their level of comfort is far greater than the no comfort the families are left with. As soon as you take away privileges their solicitor kicks up a stink over human right infringements (usually at further cost to the taxpayer) and there is nothing in UK prison law as far as I am aware where you can make them serve a sentence with bare minimums. Life, whether it means life or a long sentence before parole is fast becoming less of a deterrent and murder rates continue to rise especially knife murders.
 

Papas1982

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It’s irreversible- once it’s done it’s done and still now people on death row are found to be Innocent- even without the appeals it’s still more expensive- then you can’t just remove the appeal process because it is such a final sentence.

Obviously Islamic countries - charged , sentence carried out with 24 hours no chance of appeal but then innocent people have been killed through the death penalty there - is that the ideals you want the UK to follow ? Same in China

The US states have those appeals in place for a reason.

And the families were asked about the Death Penalty - do you really think they would want the offender to be killed and get the quick way out ? Or have then be sat in a cell being punished for the rest of their life - it’s a life death sentance being left to rot knowing his life is over.

Having seen the documentary on death row. I'd rather they were dead than the lives they had. They had pets in some cells for crying our loud.

If a life sentence was for life and it was 23 hrs in a tiny cell with nothing but their thoughts for company with an hour to stretch their legs then I would say that's enough. Unfortunately it isn't.

In regards to a system in place and costs. I'm not going to spend hours researching justify an opinion. But as I said. By thoughts on those who deserve death are multiple killers. How many serial killers have been found innocent after the fact?

I'm not saying kill anyone who kills. But a serial murderer or rapist? I'd imagine most charged with those offences are done with such conviction that a appeal isn't actually required. Its just red tape to follow.

Anyways that's enough from me. I belive in the penalty for extreme cases. Simple as that. Nowt gonna change it.

You belive it's wrong and that's cool.
 

bobmac

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There have been times where there is no doubt - yet 5/10 years down the line they have been found innocent. How do you then tackle things like mental issues etc ?
So someone walks in to a nightclub and shoots 10 people, runs out of bullets and is wrestled to the floor by bouncers. All on CCTV.
Guilty or not guilty?

A guy dressed in a black hoody stabs someone. 30 mins later, someone dressed in black hoody is arrested 1/2 a mile away.
Guilty or not guilty?

You're an armed policeman and you see a gunman shoot your colleague dead. The gunman turns his gun on someone else. You shoot him dead first.
Are you guilty or not guilty?
 
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So someone walks in to a nightclub and shoots 10 people, runs out of bullets and is wrestled to the floor by bouncers. All on CCTV.
Guilty or not guilty?

How many times has CCTV been doctored and thrown out from court ? How many times has technology had glitches ? How many times does a PC crash ? Name me one bit of technology that is 100% foolproof and reliable ?

What if that man was declared clinically insane ?

A guy dressed in a black hoody stabs someone. 30 mins later, someone dressed in black hoody is arrested 1/2 a mile away.
Guilty or not guilty?

How many black hoodies in the world ? How do you know there isn’t two or three of four people in the area wearing black hoodies

You're an armed policeman and you see a gunman shoot your colleague dead. The gunman turns his gun on someone else. You shoot him dead first.
Are you guilty or not guilty?

If you follow your rules of engagement then you are covered by the law


But as soon as someone starts asking “What if” doubt appears.

How many cases are that open and shut ? If they were why do they take weeks or months to sort out - because it’s just not that clear in reality is it .
 

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Innocent people are still convicted even with modern techniques - if it’s wrong for someone to murder someone then why should it be right for the law to decide to remove someone’s life. Countries are actually moving away from capital punishment not introducing it

On this case he shouldn’t have been released in the first place

Someone’s life can’t be removed as a punishment- that’s just not modern society

To protect the rest of the population!
 
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To protect the rest of the population!

Other ways to protect the population than just deciding to end their life - 12 people ot a judge will never have the power to end someone’s life - it’s a crime to kill someone so should ( and thankfully ) will never be allowed to pass it as a punishment
 

Slime

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Exactly that - they won’t reoffend , but they are going to suffer for a long time

https://deathpenalty.org/facts/5-myths-death-penalty/

This another website which shows
It’s actually more expensive to pass the death penalty due to the whole process
The families actually don’t feel closure again due to the whole process of appeals etc

I think the punishment of life without parole , solitary confinement, out of a cell for one hour a day will be a better punishment -and yes I don’t believe we should be able to lawfully kill someone as punishment

................................. in America.
 

HomerJSimpson

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Other ways to protect the population than just deciding to end their life - 12 people ot a judge will never have the power to end someone’s life - it’s a crime to kill someone so should ( and thankfully ) will never be allowed to pass it as a punishment
Dress it up any way you like, at the moment there is no deterrent for murderers (look at the increase in knife murders in 2018/19 in the UK, this isn't the US). It strikes me at the moment that the majority are getting sentences with a minimum term permitted and so are going to be allowed back into society at some point. Is that any closure for the family knowing at some point the killer of their son/daughter/parent is back out and free to live their lives. Even if they are given a life tariff, the conditions in UK jails are not such that they are left to rot (a point you seem keen to ignore) and most have access to a degree of mod cons, more so if they are then rewarded for good behaviour inside. Add in three square meals, and an ever increasing burden to the taxpayer and I see nothing at the moment that is a deterrent.
 
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