In a divot with flap of earth covering the ball?

[turkish]

So this happened me yesterday but luckily it was preferred lies so could mark and place. Could see maybe only 50-60% of the ball and it was right up against back of the divot with the flap of earth covering.

do you get relief here? It wasn't plugged but was essentially under ground. There was no way a stroke could be made on it as was quite a deep divot so likely either bury it further or might got it forward 10-20 yards.

 

[Spuddy]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

No free relief I'm afraid. If the flap was unattached you can remove it but would be penalised if the ball moved whilst doing so.

Edited to add: obviously with preferred lies in place you are free to move your ball without penalty within the defined distance providing you are on a closely mown area.

 

[backwoodsman]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

I'll wait for the experts to give an opinion, but I'm not sure it would be free relief even with preferred lies?

If the flap of the divot is still attached, then it's not a loose impediment, and it's not an obstruction - so I'm not sure you can move it in order to prefer your lie?

 

[Fyldewhite]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

Plugged isn't a term in the rules, neither is "under ground". The question is "was it embedded in it's own pitch mark?". Answer is obviously "no". No relief then.

"There was no way a stroke could be made on it" - then it was probably unplayable then......there's a rule for that situation


Edit: Preferred lies would make the above immaterial but if it wasn't no relief

 

[SammmeBee]

Play away laddie......

 

[Colin L]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

I'll wait for the experts to give an opinion, but I'm not sure it would be free relief even with preferred lies?

If the flap of the divot is still attached, then it's not a loose impediment, and it's not an obstruction - so I'm not sure you can move it in order to prefer your lie?

The only requirement for a preferred lie under the local rule is that the ball lies in a closely mown area.

 

[Smiffy]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

This happened to my Brother in Law when we played at Letham Grange in Scotland one year.
Was like a pearl sitting inside an oyster, and the divot (which was quite large) was still attached at the front.
Had to laugh....he didn't though. I think his pitching wedge went flying if memory serves me correctly.....

 

[williamalex1]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

I declared mine unplayable, rather than trying to play it and burying it deeper.
It is a bit unfair when the ball is in the middle of the fairway.
But rules are rules.

 

[cliveb]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

This discussion prompts me to ask the rules experts out there: what is the rationale whereby preferred lies on the fairway is not a permanent rule of golf, applicable at all times?

The only downside to allowing it all the time that I can think of is that whenever you're in a divot and move the ball, chances are you'll make *another* divot, so the course will be further degraded. But is that the actual reason? I can't think of any other. And if that *is* the reason, why should things be different in winter?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

Why would you need preferred lies all year round ?

Preffered lies in the winter is also to help remove mud from ball as well as take it out its own pitch mark as well as protecting the course ( easier to take more divots on softer ground )

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Lucky you had preferred lies in operation!

No free relief I'm afrad - either play it as it lies of take a penalty drop.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

I really cant see why you would need to make an unplayable call, and take a penalty just because the ball is in a poor unreplaced divot. Surely even a pitching wedge will propel the ball forward? It's not like someones uses a JCB bucket to play their shots.

 

[Colin L]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

This discussion prompts me to ask the rules experts out there: what is the rationale whereby preferred lies on the fairway is not a permanent rule of golf, applicable at all times?

The only downside to allowing it all the time that I can think of is that whenever you're in a divot and move the ball, chances are you'll make *another* divot, so the course will be further degraded. But is that the actual reason? I can't think of any other. And if that *is* the reason, why should things be different in winter?

You aren’t seriously suggesting that we should always be allowed to pick up our ball on the fairway and choose the best lie within 6 inches or even worse, as sometimes is the rule for preferred lies, within a club length? The justification for preferred lies is clearly stated in the rules:

... adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When these conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes "preferred lies" or "winter rules" would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule (which should be withdrawn as soon as conditions warrant) is recommended.....

In other words, it is only when conditions make playing the ball as it lies unreasonable or unduly damaging that preferred lies are allowed. To have it as a permanent rule would fundamentally change the game.

 

[cliveb]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

Why would you need preferred lies all year round ?

In order to deal with the kind of situation described by the OP.
Or, more commonly, so that a good drive is not penalised if it ends up in a deep divot.
(Plenty of people have asked why relief from a divot isn't allowed, and the usual response is "how do you know it's a divot?". If instead you just allow preferred lies any time, whether it's a divot is irrelevant).

Preffered lies in the winter is also to help remove mud from ball

OK, fair point

as well as take it out its own pitch mark

Rule 25-2 already deals with that (and at any time of the year, FWIW)

as well as protecting the course ( easier to take more divots on softer ground )

If you're saying that you're more likely to take a divot on soft ground in the winter, then allowing the ball to be moved out of a divot in the winter so that another one can be made next to it is hardly protecting the course, is it?

I'm not trying to be difficult - I just genuinely want to know the logical reason why preferred lies aren't allowed all the time. Someone like Colin or Rulefan or Duncan must know the reason.

EDIT: Oh, I see Colin has indeed responded while I was typing this. So the basic reason is that it would change the game. OK, I accept that.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

How many times have the situation described in the OP actually happened though - once in a blue moon , I can only recall being in a bad divot once in the last 5 years

And the reason why you can't have preffered lies all year round - because it's not really golf is it

 

[Imurg]

Re: Golf ball in divot with flap of earth covering ball

I really cant see why you would need to make an unplayable call, and take a penalty just because the ball is in a poor unreplaced divot. Surely even a pitching wedge will propel the ball forward? It's not like someones uses a JCB bucket to play their shots.

You've obviously never played with Aztecs27...😂😂

 

[duncan mackie]

In order to deal with the kind of situation described by the OP.
Or, more commonly, so that a good drive is not penalised if it ends up in a deep divot.
(Plenty of people have asked why relief from a divot isn't allowed, and the usual response is "how do you know it's a divot?". If instead you just allow preferred lies any time, whether it's a divot is irrelevant).


OK, fair point


Rule 25-2 already deals with that (and at any time of the year, FWIW)


If you're saying that you're more likely to take a divot on soft ground in the winter, then allowing the ball to be moved out of a divot in the winter so that another one can be made next to it is hardly protecting the course, is it?

I'm not trying to be difficult - I just genuinely want to know the logical reason why preferred lies aren't allowed all the time. Someone like Colin or Rulefan or Duncan must know the reason.

EDIT: Oh, I see Colin has indeed responded while I was typing this. So the basic reason is that it would change the game. OK, I accept that.

Clive, sometimes (especially with so many pages of rules) it's easy to forget one of the key principles of the rules - you play the ball as it lies.

Another is that golf is played in a natural environment and you take the rough with the smooth - rub of the green.

Generally the rules then try to handle the unexpected and the unnatural in order to maintain another principle of equity. Equity is not about fairness to the individual when faced by a difficult situation; it's about trying to ensure that everyone in any situation is treated the same.

Hope this helps