General play cuts, how can they do this?

[MadAdey]

A new golfing mate of mine joined my club last summer. Before that he had only ever had a mess around on the municipals now and again with his mates. He put his cards in and got given a 25 handicap. He played a few comps at the back end of last year and did not manage to knock anything off his handicap.

Last September he bumped into me and my mate and had a round with us and since then has become a permanent fixture. With some sound advice on the wonderful game and how to score low he is now easily knocking it round under 90 (par 72 course) almost everytime.

So anyway he took my partner for the winter league due to my injury and so far they have destroyed everything they have played. One of those games was against the handicap secretary who plays off 5. He was not impressed to see a 25 handicapper hitting most fairways and only 10-20 yards behind him. On Saturday when my mate went to the golf club he has now found out that he is going to be playing off 18 after the winter league has finished.

Is this not a bit harsh seeing as it has been in a betterball comp playing off winter tees? My mate is not bothered as his target was to get to 18 this year anyway, so that is his yearly target done before the season starts. Surely taking 7 shots from him like that is not right is it? Hats off to the handicap man for having a set of balls and doing this, but my mate is not a bandit, he is just new to the game and has picked it up really easily.

 

[chrisd]

To be honest that is an abuse of power. The club can do a small (1 or 2 shots) adjustment in the annual review if they see that the cards for the year require it. It is not permitted to knock 7 shots off under Rule 23 of CONGU. They gave him the handicap according to the cards he submitted and can only make minor adjustments if he submits cards, say 7 under his handicap, when I was on golf committee it was never more than 2 shots on top of what the computer adjusted

its all well and good saying that he is happy as its got him where he wants to be but, for me, he is entitled to some competition sucess whist aceiving a lower handicap as a reward for the work he has put in.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

When you are new to the game, its not uncommon to see big leaps in progress, its only when you have been playing for a while that you get a plateau.

So im not surprised, if he is beating 90 regularly then 18 is about right

Besides if the handicap secretary himself has set it, you aint going to change his mind

Fragger

 

[pbrown7582]

Didn't think they could do this sort of reappraisal, especially better ball comps I thought to get a cut in these you had to be under par as a team and one person score on 14/18 holes.
And also with supplementary cards now in use I thought the general play rule was superseded by the annual handicap review?
Doesn't really make sense even if you can understand the reasoning riles is rules!

 

[Heidi]

7 is excessive!
Our annual review has 5 ladies either going up or down by a max of 2 shots
If he's playing to 18 then it wont be a problem tho
what an odd thing to do!

 

[chrisd]

Besides if the handicap secretary himself has set it, you aint going to change his mind

Fragger

I am certain that if he went to the EGU/CONGU then the handicap secretary would be told to act within the rules. It's down to the player if he wants to argue it but it is clearly an abuse of power under the CONGU rule book. It is permissible to adjust a players handicap but its unfair that he will only get cut because he played with the handicap secretary and would have not been cut if he played with anyone else, who afterwards may have spoken to the secretary and been told that a cut was not possible on hearsay.

 

[ArnoldArmChewer]

And also with supplementary cards now in use I thought the general play rule was superseded by the annual handicap review?
QUOTE]

Thats what I thought too

 

[Ethan]

The Handicap Sec sounds like the typical club official raised to a position above his competency. There are a lot of them around who don't know the rules or how to exercise power.

This player sounds like he should be playing off 18, but the process for amending his handicap is fairly clear and needs to be followed properly.

 

[rosecott]

Didn't think they could do this sort of reappraisal, especially better ball comps I thought to get a cut in these you had to be under par as a team and one person score on 14/18 holes.

Not so - you cannot lay down a formula for Clause 23 reductions.

The new rules do, however, give a bit of guidance on re-visiting initial handicap awards in the light of subsequent performance. The Handicap Secretary in this case may be relying on that. That said, it does seem way over the top.

 

[rosecott]

And also with supplementary cards now in use I thought the general play rule was superseded by the annual handicap review?
QUOTE]

Thats what I thought too

No - Clause 23 adjustments between Annual Reviews are still part of the handicapping scheme.

 

[Imurg]

To my mind, if he's playing to it - let him play off it.

 

[moogie]

Sorry, But, being cut 7 shots on the basis of Winter Golf, forward tees, possibly temp greens, shorter course, That Is just RIDICULOUS
My last 4 games at my own course have been 77, 72, 74, 76
But one of the Par 5's is a Par 4 - Driver + Gap Wedge, and one Par 4 plays 160yds winter green + forward tee, and other holes shorter too
So scoring may seem great, but I judge myself off how Im swinging at the moment, not just the card

A Real SOUR GRAPES abuse of power,
By all means an adjustment, if deserved, but NEVER 7 shots

 

[chrisd]

To my mind, if he's playing to it - let him play off it.

Thats just not fair as it doesnt take into account a "good day at the office"

How would you deal with my round on Saturday?

I played a 4BBB matchplay against 2 x 4 handicappers and, off 11 handicap shot 1 under gross for the back 9 and we wond 2 and 1 - clearly bandit country. Should they cut me by 5 or 6 shots? I desperately am trying to get to single figures but savage cutting on observation is not the way to it do

 

[Imurg]

Sorry, But, being cut 7 shots on the basis of Winter Golf, forward tees, possibly temp greens, shorter course, That Is just RIDICULOUS
My last 4 games at my own course have been 77, 72, 74, 76
But one of the Par 5's is a Par 4 - Driver + Gap Wedge, and one Par 4 plays 160yds winter green + forward tee, and other holes shorter too
So scoring may seem great, but I judge myself off how Im swinging at the moment, not just the card

A Real SOUR GRAPES abuse of power,
By all means an adjustment, if deserved, but NEVER 7 shots

You're assuming the course is shorter - not always so.
Our place plays off the same tees - with mats on the par 3's all year with no reduction in length. That's why it racks me off that we don't play any qualifiers over the Winter.
Your course is shorter but we don't know if the one in the OP is. May be the same length an possibly more tricky due to lack of run.

If he's playing to 18 regularly then make him play off 18.

 

[Whee]

If he's consistently knocking it round under 90 on a par 72, to my mind 18 is generous.

 

[Imurg]

With some sound advice on the wonderful game and how to score low he is now easily knocking it round under 90 (par 72 course) almost everytime.

Thats just not fair as it doesnt take into account a "good day at the office"

That, to me, says it all.

If under 90 is "easy" ...............

Not just a good day at the office....

 

[bobmac]

With some sound advice on the wonderful game and how to score low he is now easily knocking it round under 90 (par 72 course) almost every time.

I expect that has not gone un-noticed among his fellow competitors and club officials.

and so far they have destroyed everything they have played.

So not really a level playing field then

but my mate is not a bandit, he is just new to the game and has picked it up really easily.

I'm sorry, but if he is playing under 90 almost every time, he is a bandit.

How many comp wins would it take to get his h/cap down to where it should be, ie 18 max?

 

[MashieNiblick]

Just looking at some of the facts as described

He put his cards in and got given a 25 handicap.

He is now easily knocking it round under 90 (par 72 course) almost everytime.

He took my partner for the winter league due to my injury and so far they have destroyed everything they have played.

He has now found out that he is going to be playing off 18 after the winter league has finished.

So in answer to your question I'd say no that's not harsh. Often people complain that the system is too slow to recognise people who are making rapid progress.

The h/cap sec has a responsibility to the rest of he club as well as to the player in question.

Chris, couldn't see the bit in the CONGU regs about only knocking off 2 shots. They do however contain a lot of stuff about the need to monitor newly allocated handicaps and the need to ensure these are fair.

The Regs are a bit dense and complicated but can't see evidence of any real failure to apply them or at least in principle. The decision may have been a bit of a knee jerk but hard to say that the outcome, in all the circumstances was unfair. Couple of extracts below give the key stuff. Was going to post some other extracts but there was too much of it.

(B)GENERAL PLAY ADJUSTMENT
23.7 In exceptional circumstances the Handicap Committee may adjust the handicap of a player in the period between Annual Reviews if there is compelling evidence that his Exact Handicap does not reflect his current playing ability. Appendix M should be consulted for guidance.

Appendix M includes the following

When carrying out the Annual Review and in giving consideration to possible handicap adjustments arising from the computer generated listing, the Handicap Committee should:
• Take account of the player’s achievements in Non Qualifying Competitions, match play competitions, four-ball better ball competitions and other forms of team event in addition to medal play performance.
...
• Possibly deal more severely with a player, whose general standard of play is known to be improving, than it would with a player who it is believed has returned scores below his general ability but whose general ability is not considered to be improving.

 

[moogie]

You're assuming the course is shorter - not always so.

No I am NOT assuming, the OP clearly stated WINTER TEES in the opening text, winter tees surely suggests a Shorter Course.........??

 

[chrisd]

I dont think that anyone would make a case for him to remain at 25, but, it's the rules of CONGU that I was refering to. He put cards in and got his (fair?) handicap and as much as everyone may like, you can't just cut 7 shots on observation, if he complained the EGU/CONGU would have a blue fit.

I am sure he is a bandit!


Our club has a max handicap of 18 for the big competitions and that seems to take care of the fast improving high handicappers