Frost

[m1975]

I have always been led to believe that frost can cause damage to greens, hence the temps come out as soon as Jack visits.
however, a friend of mine, who plays elsewhere tells me it is a great myth that as soon as a frost hits then greens need protecting (his course normally stays on greens) unless we are talking really severe and the ground further below freezes?
Anyone got any knowledge on this.

 

[Bratty]

Most of our greens were played on last winter with frost (and frozen at times!) and this summer they've been really good. No affect whatsoever it seems.

But then I also know courses who close completely when there's heavy frost or when things are frozen.

Doesn't seem to be consistency!

 

[USER1999]

Alot of the research was done in the states, on sand based greens, which has no relevance over here.

I know courses which stay on all year and the greens are great in the season, and others of similar age and construction that are off at the merest sniff of frost (ours), and the greens are great in season.

To me, there is no consistency, and from my experiences over 30 years of playing in all conditions, going to temps is cobblers.

 

[Society_Fan]

I know that construction is different, but if one couirse can play on frosty greens then why can't all courses.

 

[john0]

I know that construction is different, but if one couirse can play on frosty greens then why can't all courses.

Cos some courses have head greenkeepers that are knobs

 

[Robobum]

Cos some courses have head greenkeepers that are knobs

Which ones? Those that let you on or keep you off?

If it was purely down to the greenkeepers then a touch of frost would mean course closed.

 

[john0]

Those that keep you off with the slightest hint of frost!

Fortunately this decision has recently been taken away from our greenkeeper

 

[Fyldewhite]

So the story goes, someone rang up St Annes Old Links a few years ago booking a winter visit and asked if the flags would be on temps. He was told that they hadn't been on temps since 1953. I don't know how true the story is but have driven past it to work almost daily for about 20 years on and off and have never seen them on temps.

Now, I'm no greenkeeper and perhaps the type of grass is a factor etc but I find it amazing that an Open qualifying venue can do this and yet most other clubs are on temps at the drop of a hat. Perhaps someone with greenkeeping knowedge can explain?

 

[GB72]

Certainly only had 2 days in the 3 years that I have been at my club when we have had temps and the course has only ever been closed in the snow. Never had an issue with the greens or fairways. One of the days on temps the ground was so hard that all you needed was a pitching wedge as it was like playing on a car park (gave up after a few holes of that)

 

[Swinger]

Our greenkeeper doesn't believe in using temp greens.

He has our course in great shape all year round and it is open nearly all year and on main greens.

He will close the course if the conditions are such that damage will be caused to the greens.

He likes to keep the members happy but does not let people play if it will have a lasting effect on the course but as he says these times are few and far between.

My only gripe is that he lets people with trollies on too much and those areas do take a bit to recover.

 

[Leftie]

There are many factors involved e.g. type of grass, substrate, drainage, etc, and severity of the frost.

As I understand it ....

A light surface frost and you will see a darkening over the next couple of days where people have walked. Will recover fairly quickly.

A medium frost down into the roots. Where people walk the roots can be broken so the grass will take a long time to recover.

A really deep frost into the substrate. The roots are safe from foot traffic but there might be a discolouration when the frost lifts.

Could be wrong though

 

[HomerJSimpson]

We'll usually stay on proper greens with the type of frosts we're getting at the moment and probably will even when it gets colder towards the weekend. These are still tending to melt during the day but it is only when they greens remain frozen and frosty for several days at a time and there is the greatest chance of long lasting damage that we'll get put onto temps

 

[Region3]

We never go onto temps, and the course is only ever closed for snow.

Having said that, they're not brilliant in the summer but very passable, if a little slow.

I've never heard of any other greens that are constructed like ours, whether that accounts for the condition of them I don't know.

This is taken from our clubs website...

Ash was used as the root-zone for the greens. This was against all advice on green construction at the time, but Jelsons organised experiments and showed it to be good growing matter with excellent drainage".
"A lot of people threw there hands up in horror and told us it wouldn't work. It wouldn't hold the nutrients and it would be very stale. It was pure black ash".

But the use of this material is the reason Beedles Lake never has to use temporary greens not even in the depths of winter.
"We started by building the 9th and 18th greens testing two different types of turf to see which was best suited to the ash. I dug out all the drainage - between 250 and 500 metres of it - and then put eight to ten inches of clean two inch ash on top of the draining layer, then two to three inches of 5/8ths down to fines to act as the intermediate layer then 12 to 18 inches on top of that".

 

[ScienceBoy]

Cos some courses have head greenkeepers that are knobs

I think some green keepers would prefer it if those darn golfers would keep off his nice course, therefore never let any on to mess it up!

 

[SwingSlow]

Cos some courses have head greenkeepers that are knobs

Which ones? Those that let you on or keep you off?

If it was purely down to the greenkeepers then a touch of frost would mean course closed.

If it were a Touch of Frost then course probably closed due to dead body and a crime scene or is that Midsomer Murders

 

[Birdman]

For the 2nd year my club has introduced frost greens (temps). In 2008 all greens were used even through bad weather as an experiment that failed as the greens were damaged, something about bent grass being broken by foot traffic.. The frost greens are only implemented whilst the frost is there, as soon as it has cleared the greens are put back in play. Our summer greens were among the best in the area this year.

 

[jimmusuk]

For the 2nd year my club has introduced frost greens (temps). In 2008 all greens were used even through bad weather as an experiment that failed as the greens were damaged, something about bent grass being broken by foot traffic.. The frost greens are only implemented whilst the frost is there, as soon as it has cleared the greens are put back in play. Our summer greens were among the best in the area this year.

I was going to suggest that someone should make a green in their garden and run a test over the winter but that could dismantle the family and the post quoted above was made before I could contribute.

obv. this answers the question BUT geographic location has got to make a difference also. I doubt theres enough heavy frost south of the midlands to justify closing greens? Wonder how many clubs in the south, south-east and south-west close their greens?

 

[richart]

Hope this is of interest.



Temporary Greens

Blackmoor Golf Club course policy is that temporary greens will be used when there is a hard ground frost and until the ground has fully thawed. The greens will be reviewed throughout the day and brought back into play as soon as possible.

What happens to turf in frost conditions?

Frost on the grass leaf blades tells us that the water inside the leaves is frozen. Remember that 80+% of plant tissue is made up of water, the primary component of plant tissue. When this water is frozen, foot traffic on the turf causes the ice crystals in the cells to puncture the plant’s cell walls thus killing plant tissue.

When they are frozen, the leaves of the turf get easily bruised by players’ feet. After thawing, the affected turf turns black or brown and becomes sparse. The turf can often remain thin for long periods if damage occurs early in the winter. The fine turf on greens becomes more susceptible to disease and the putting surface becomes very uneven.

More long-term damage can be caused when play takes place as the turf is thawing after a prolonged freeze. Under these conditions the top surface of the turf may be soft, but the underlying soil can still be frozen. Root damage occurs easily from a shearing action as players’ feet move the soft top surface against the frozen sub soil.


The process of damage to the turf normally occurs in the following pattern

* Bruising and damage to the leaf.
* Loss of turf colour.
* Severing of grass roots.
* Compaction of the soil.
* Thinning of the swards.

Course Policies

There is a split amongst courses whereby some will use temporary greens to avoid this potential damage whilst others allow play regardless of frost.

Those courses, which allow play to the main greens under these conditions consider the damage they receive to be manageable.

They take into consideration:

* Management of grass species in their greens
* The amount of play through the winter
* The extent to which cold and frosty conditions put the membership off playing, the reduced number of rounds on affected days causing less damage
* The restriction of visitors on certain days especially at the weekend to reduce traffic
* The size of their greens and the area for legal pin placements.

Blackmoor’s decision to use a temporary greens policy has been taken as part of the management plan to promote Browntop Bent sward greens (instead of Poa Annua). Browntop Bent is the most desirable and best- suited grass to the conditions faced at Blackmoor golf club.

Using temporary greens in the winter means that efforts in the growing season (overseeding) have a much higher success rate therefore speeding up the grass species change-over and reaching the goal sooner. As you can see above from the effects of playing on greens when they are frozen it is the complete opposite of our plan to encourage new growth. So until we have reached the overwhelming dominance of the better grasses we must continue to use this policy.

Browntop Bent characteristics:

Good all year round colour

Broad flat leaf blade (good green speed)

Low fertility requirements (cost)

Resistant to most diseases

Lower disruptive maintenance requirements and costs

Drought tolerant


Poa Annua Characteristics

Bad colour out of growing season

Soft lush leaf blade

Shallow rooting

Prone to diseases

High maintenance requirements

High maintenance costs

Not drought tolerant

 

[CliveW]

So the story goes, someone rang up St Annes Old Links a few years ago booking a winter visit and asked if the flags would be on temps. He was told that they hadn't been on temps since 1953. I don't know how true the story is but have driven past it to work almost daily for about 20 years on and off and have never seen them on temps.

Now, I'm no greenkeeper and perhaps the type of grass is a factor etc but I find it amazing that an Open qualifying venue can do this and yet most other clubs are on temps at the drop of a hat. Perhaps someone with greenkeeping knowedge can explain?

The course is probably closed when there is frost.

 

[SammmeBee]

So the story goes, someone rang up St Annes Old Links a few years ago booking a winter visit and asked if the flags would be on temps. He was told that they hadn't been on temps since 1953. I don't know how true the story is but have driven past it to work almost daily for about 20 years on and off and have never seen them on temps.

Now, I'm no greenkeeper and perhaps the type of grass is a factor etc but I find it amazing that an Open qualifying venue can do this and yet most other clubs are on temps at the drop of a hat. Perhaps someone with greenkeeping knowedge can explain?

The course is probably closed when there is frost.

Like they are today.....!