EVEL - Not Worthy of Full Debate!

I wonder what difference it will really make

As with most of the things the main desicions that effect most of us are decided by all of them anyway

How many times really will we see a situation were there will be English only voting ?
 
FairwayDodger said:
Dear god why is it so hard to understand!?

The principle of EVEL is perfectly correct but this is the wrong way to go about it. We need Scottish, English, Welsh and NI parliaments all with identically devolved powers. And preferably the members meeting up two days a week at Westminster for UK business rather than having double the MPs!

Trying to get the UK Parliament to double up as the English Parliament with some ugly "quick fix" is a complete disaster. It will end badly!
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Or..... And here is a radical idea..... Just have one government for the whole nation.
Without devolution there would be no need for EVEL, so all those from Scotland, NI and Wales who wanted devolution should not utter a peep when the English want English MP's to decide on England only matters. It is only what they wanted after all. For a Scotsman who lives in England to say this is arrogant is arrogance itself.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
...and so with the vote going the governments way that's us with EVEL on it's way. Does anyone know what it actually is; how it will work etc? So the House of Commons of the UK Parliament that has been in place for a few hundred years has been crucially changed - almost on a whim - and with hardly a by-your-leave to the UK electorate. That's OK then. Well onwards - to what? Most obvious thing is that there will most likely never again be a Prime Minister or Cabinet Member from a Scottish Westminster Parliamentary constituency - just one thing that shows that Westminster can no longer be considered a UK Parliament.
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That's right. The House of Commons of the UK Parliament that has been in place for a few hundred years has changed. But not by EVEL. By devolution in the first place. Until then, the UK Parliament governed the whole of the UK. And EVEL has not happened on a whim. It was in the Conservative manifesto. It had to happen because the English people, you remember them, the silent majority you never hear from, finally got sick to the back teeth of whinging Scots who would rather be run by Brussels than Westminster. Fed up hearing them bleat on about independence, but only if they could take the best of Britain with them, like the pound and relying on the UK to protect them in the event of a war, because we all know how much the Scots don't want nuclear weapons on their soil. To listen to them now, you would never believe they themselves voted against independence.
So, if English MP's can't vote on Scottish matters, what makes you think Scottish MP's should vote on English only matters? Face facts. EVEL only came about because of devolution. If you don't like it, I suggest you direct your anger at your beloved First Minister rather than Mr. Cameron.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
...and so with the vote going the governments way that's us with EVEL on it's way. Does anyone know what it actually is; how it will work etc? So the House of Commons of the UK Parliament that has been in place for a few hundred years has been crucially changed - almost on a whim - and with hardly a by-your-leave to the UK electorate. That's OK then. Well onwards - to what? Most obvious thing is that there will most likely never again be a Prime Minister or Cabinet Member from a Scottish Westminster Parliamentary constituency - just one thing that shows that Westminster can no longer be considered a UK Parliament.
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Re: the bold, why on earth would you think that?!
 
FairwayDodger said:
Dear god why is it so hard to understand!?

The principle of EVEL is perfectly correct but this is the wrong way to go about it. We need Scottish, English, Welsh and NI parliaments all with identically devolved powers. And preferably the members meeting up two days a week at Westminster for UK business rather than having double the MPs!

Trying to get the UK Parliament to double up as the English Parliament with some ugly "quick fix" is a complete disaster. It will end badly!
Click to expand...

This sort of comment really annoys me. Why would you even think about trying to bring "logic" and "reason" to this conversation. Just because your idea would be cheaper, easier to run, more visible as to split roles, potentially more representative, and generally better, why would you think that makes a sensible suggestion!
 
Moreover, if people could see beyond their anti-Scottish bias they'd realise that EVEL is so poorly conceived that it's bad for England as well.

As I understand it, it gives English MPs a veto over anything Westminster passes that only pertains to England. If that's correct, what it doesn't do is allow them to vote through an English-only matter that has already been rejected by the full parliament, including Scottish/Welsh/NI votes.

Basically a rabble-rousing PR exercise by Cameron that fails to deliver devolution to England but still drives another wedge between our nations.
 
CheltenhamHacker said:
This sort of comment really annoys me. Why would you even think about trying to bring "logic" and "reason" to this conversation. Just because your idea would be cheaper, easier to run, more visible as to split roles, potentially more representative, and generally better, why would you think that makes a sensible suggestion!
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I'm just a dreamer! ;)
 
FairwayDodger said:
Moreover, if people could see beyond their anti-Scottish bias they'd realise that EVEL is so poorly conceived that it's bad for England as well.

As I understand it, it gives English MPs a veto over anything Westminster passes that only pertains to England. If that's correct, what it doesn't do is allow them to vote through an English-only matter that has already been rejected by the full parliament, including Scottish/Welsh/NI votes.

Basically a rabble-rousing PR exercise by Cameron that fails to deliver devolution to England but still drives another wedge between our nations.
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Summed up well

If the conservatives want the UK to stay as one they are going the wrong way about it

Bad feelings are growing on a daily basis and it's not good
 
Duckster said:
Personally I don't care what the SNP think about it. Any laws effecting just England should have absolutely nothing to do with Scottish or Welsh MP's.

I'm happy with it, the lads at work have been chatting about and are all in agreement that it's about time.

Some of us are simply sick to the back teeth with all the debates going on about Scotland, Wales & NI yet finally when the English get something.....
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And Cameron just goes on setting things up to make sure the Tories get in again. He's a good listener.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Summed up well

If the conservatives want the UK to stay as one they are going the wrong way about it

Bad feelings are growing on a daily basis and it's not good
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I don't disagree, but I don't think you can blame the Conservatives for reacting to a current situation created by others. To do so would be to say that the English should be treated unfairly in an effort to keep the peace and the Union. As it's the English who mainly pay for the Union and the fact that our TV screens are filled on a nightly basis with Nicola Cranky and Dr Spock, spouting their anti Union diatribe, you can't really blame the Conservatives for the growth of bad feelings.
The Scots had a fair vote. The Scots themselves voted to stay in the Union. It's over. Before the vote, you only heard from the Nats. Since the vote we have only heard from the Nats. Maybe it's time for the silent, sensible majority of Scots to speak up again, otherwise bad feeling will continue to grow. It's human nature, if someone tells you they hate you for long enough, you tend to start hating them.
 
The English could set up a new parliament, overspend millions in building it, spend millions staffing it, having a new level of representatives (more cost) and on and on it goes. Alternatively, for the odd occasions when an English only issue arises the current English MP's could vote alone and decide the issue without the millions / billions required for setting up a new parliament. Unless of course the SNP would like a the Scottish parliament to receive a reduction in funding due to the UK govt having to pay to set this new parliament up?

Once the devolution bandwagon was set rolling then some inevitablities were set in place. Increased animosity and a split in the union are two that immediately spring to mind. Whoever thought they would not happen are deluding themselves.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
The English could set up a new parliament, overspend millions in building it, spend millions staffing it, having a new level of representatives (more cost) and on and on it goes. Alternatively, for the odd occasions when an English only issue arises the current English MP's could vote alone and decide the issue without the millions / billions required for setting up a new parliament. Unless of course the SNP would like a the Scottish parliament to receive a reduction in funding due to the UK govt having to pay to set this new parliament up?
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This is basically what has happened for the last 20 years......very seldom have Scots MP's [will people please stop calling then SNP MP's for this threads sanity] voted on English only matters. There are obviously some grey areas where English laws will impact on the Scots.
[Let's take the legalisation of heroin as a spoof example]
The choice to abstain from English only matters is made by the Scots MP's.......the problem is that The Tories wish to take that choice away and submit that choice to the Speaker.

Now remind me ......how is the Speaker elected or dismissed.
 
The Speaker is neutral, currently a Conservative liked by Labour and others. Done a pretty good job of staying neutral. He will make the decision along with two other senior MP's is my understanding.

Very seldom is still too often. Choosing to abstain or not should not be an option. After all English MP's do not influence matters in the Scottish or Welsh parliaments. That is the whole point.
 
CheltenhamHacker said:
Re: the bold, why on earth would you think that?!
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Because he or she would not be able to vote on any matter determined to be for EVEL - so we'd have a UK PM not able to vote on a major piece of English legislation - or Cabinet Minister not able to vote on a major piece of English legislation from his own department? And how could you have a PM or Cabinet minister expressing a view on their own legislation when they'd be told to butt out - nothing to do with them.
 
Doon frae Troon said:
I wonder what the Queen of Scots has to say on the matter ?

I have never been a fan of the House of Lords but for once I hope they stop this madness in it's tracks.
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Was EVEL in the Tory manifesto? One thing reported and being discussed about the Lords is that they tend not to stop legislation arising from the governing parties previous GE manifesto.
 
Sweep said:
I don't disagree, but I don't think you can blame the Conservatives for reacting to a current situation created by others. To do so would be to say that the English should be treated unfairly in an effort to keep the peace and the Union. As it's the English who mainly pay for the Union and the fact that our TV screens are filled on a nightly basis with Nicola Cranky and Dr Spock, spouting their anti Union diatribe, you can't really blame the Conservatives for the growth of bad feelings.
The Scots had a fair vote. The Scots themselves voted to stay in the Union. It's over. Before the vote, you only heard from the Nats. Since the vote we have only heard from the Nats. Maybe it's time for the silent, sensible majority of Scots to speak up again, otherwise bad feeling will continue to grow. It's human nature, if someone tells you they hate you for long enough, you tend to start hating them.
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The English through their MPs have always effectively had the power to vote on what is good for England and that may not be for the rest of the UK - after all of the 650 MPs 533 are English. England has always been able to get whatever it wants - it doesn't need 'devolution' just agreement between English MPs across parties. And if a government can't get that - well that's democracy - but the ability to get for England whatever the government of the day wants has always been there,
 
Lord Tyrion said:
The Speaker is neutral, currently a Conservative liked by Labour and others. Done a pretty good job of staying neutral. He will make the decision along with two other senior MP's is my understanding.

Very seldom is still too often. Choosing to abstain or not should not be an option. After all English MP's do not influence matters in the Scottish or Welsh parliaments. That is the whole point.
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But neither is there English representation in either of the Scottish or Welsh Parliaments. But English MPs can and do influence what happens in the Scottish Parliament - through the decisions they make in Westminster that impact through Barnett formula funding or that possibly might mean the Scottish Parliament has to pragmatically follow the Westminster lead - even if the matter is devolved.
 
Lord Tyrion said:
The Speaker is neutral, currently a Conservative liked by Labour and others. Done a pretty good job of staying neutral. He will make the decision along with two other senior MP's is my understanding.

Very seldom is still too often. Choosing to abstain or not should not be an option. After all English MP's do not influence matters in the Scottish or Welsh parliaments. That is the whole point.
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....and William Hague's parting shot on the last day of the Con/Dem Parliament was to try and bring in a double sneeky motion to sack the Speaker.....disgraceful behaviour from a former Tory leader. Remember the tearful reply from the duped Tory back bencher....I'd rather be seen as a fool than a man with no integrity.

Why would the Tories want to sack a Speaker who had been widely supported by MP's as neutral and honest.
 
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