EU pesticide vote

[Cernunnos]

Cernunnos,

Ok, the situation on the majority of British courses is this..

Every employee that sprays has a certificate of competence.
The Head greenkeeper will decide on that morning, if, the weather conditions are suitable to spray...ie is it windy, is it going to rain, will the chemical dry on the leaf before golf gets out, have I warned the starter about the spraying, have I carried out a risk assessment on the chemical that I am spraying, is every access point to the course got a sign to say I am spraying, have I chosen the least harmful chemical to do the job?.......

You see we try our best to minimise the risk to golfers and public coming onto our courses. To be honest the risk to you guys is minimal, if not negligible.

Britain has the highest standards in Europe re pesticide application, but this legislation implies that it is not good enough, it is like cutting off the nose to stop a cold.

Tommy

I understand this And I'm certainly glad to hear that these risk assesments are done. And I'm aware certain things must be done

Though at the end of the day doesn't make me feel much better, as I have had certain skin problems after playing occasionally. (this is the tip of the iceberg)

I can really see how after going to the trouble of getting the right certificates & obibing by all the regulations it may feel like a kick in the teeth & a lack of trust. Especially as after reading back through your posts it does seem that using really powerful pesticides etc is a last resort for you.

Especially where powerful pesticides & chemicals are still avilable to the general public. Well maybe not as many really bad ones as many years ago, but still worrying.

It does seem like double standards to allow the general public have access when someone properly trained does not have access.

I'm not embaressed to say I'd rather no-one used really powerful pesticides no matter what the certificates or training. Someone is bound to pipe up about crops yealds, food prices etc. But I stand firm in my objections in general wherever.

At the end of the day, if we have to putt on dodgy greens for a season or two then so be it. As any pro & greenkeeper worth his salt will keep the members up to date on the reasons for whatever they do or don't do.

I visited a coastal course a couple of years ago where the greenkeeper came up to our party & profusly appologised for completely scarifying the surface off a particular farway or two, he explained why to us. Now we assured him we understood & didn't mind. We didn't mind for three reasons. One was we were paying a reduced winter rate that day & he had taken the trouble to inform us what he was up to. Plus we understand maintainace has to happen from time to time.

We were quite touched as he seemed so embaressed about it. What made it for us was the fact he'd kept us informed.

The irony was the fairway he'd taken the surface off was still quite playable & certainly didn't spoil our enjoyment of the day.

Well kept greens are probably one of the things that golfers look for most in a course. But I played a course last year where there was an extremely bad desease effecting the greens, the irony even though there were great brown patches in the grass, the surface was still very puttable & still quick & true.

Actually I'm not so bothered about how fast or slow a green is, so long as its puttable & reasonably consistent (within reason) accross the course. Obviously there will be variations in pace especially on courses where tree cover varries. So this simply adds to the challenge.

Golf is meant to be a challenge.

 

[Cernunnos]

Does anyone on the forum use bleach/bleach based products whilst cleaning their homes? Does anyone on the forum use detergents to clean their cars? Would anyone on the forum let their kids play with the bottles!?

This chemical is "almost certainly" going to be banned, it is also a "suspected" carcagenic, and as for the "rule made in the one size fits all range", The rule hasn't been made yet! I have a pesticide/fungicide licence and come in to contact with them very often. I also come into contact with a lot of other people who use them, some of these people have even mentioned that nearly all will be banned! I've not seen much evidence for these claims so I think the phrase is along the lines of "mountains and molehills", But do not get me started on MOLES!.

By the way, Does anyone on the forum know that motor oil as a carcagenic material?

Yes I did know, this is why we are not allowed to drain waste motor oil down the drain & it must be taken to proper recycling centres for correct disposal.

It really is frightening what in our society is harmful.

For instance someone asked what to use for cleaning sticky substances off his clubs. My solution is furniture polish. The irony is that wherever posible I actually use a water dampened cloth & not furniture polish.

I try not to use bleach for cleaning the toilet when a decent loo brush can do the job & a couple of good flushes.

Any chemical in my home is a last resort & then used sparingly. I recycle all my tins, glass, plastic paper etc. Though its a bit of a kick in the teeth when I hear stories about waste for recycling just sitting in fields or warehouses, or worse simply dumped with the rest of the none recyclable waste in landfill.

As a nation & a world we are extremely wasteful & as a society as you point out there are really a lot of harmful chemicals in everyday use... Frighteningly so.

Who here now goes out with re-usable bags when shopping?

 

[TommyMorris]

Thanks Cerr..

I hope from tonight you guys understand that we, who look after your courses, do so with the upmost passion and conviction, and that when outside influences dictate the maintenance of your pastime, then we get upset and need to vent off a little....

Tom.

 

[TonyN]

No input from me I'm afraid. I don't know enough about the subject but I enjoyed Reading it. Tommy I can see your going to be a great asset to the forum. Welcome.

 

[Ken_A]

Thanks Cerr..

I hope from tonight you guys understand that we, who look after your courses, do so with the upmost passion and conviction, and that when outside influences dictate the maintenance of your pastime, then we get upset and need to vent off a little....

Tom.

This has been a great read. Hat off to you Tom I am really impressed with your love and enthusiasm for your course. It is clear you love your job, which must be incredibly thankless at times (probably most of the time)

I honestly never knew that you have to take so much care when using chemicals on the course I thought it could be applied by any of the green staff. I have to admit I am embarrassed by this.

If the regs do come in then I feel for greenkeepers, I hear people complaining about lots on the course. Most of the time I do disagree with them as my home course is generally in good condition all year round. And if it is in poor shape it is normally due to extreme conditions. If the legislation does get passed some time then perhaps it is another nail in the clubs coffin.

 

[Herbie]

There is a little excitement on this subject but I tend to take an over view based on what I see achieved on golf courses all over the place.
Attraction of wildlife, bird species in particular, improvement to water courses benefitting the land and in some cases nearby communities, palnting of flora and forna, trees by the thousands in some cases, creation of walks for the public arround the course perimeter or woodland, ponds with fish and on some courses fishing.
Most of the attracted wildlife and farmed birds or fish would be the first to feel the brunt of pesticide mis-use, I think we should all be greatful for our courses and those that create and manage them, not question them or comdem.
On some Links courses the land management has protected acres of at risk wildlife and erosion, so all in all I think this EU decision should, to be blunt, leave golf courses out of this green policy b****x! Golf courses have been greener than any community dwellers back yard or colourful plant selections in their hanging baskets

 

[rgs]

If a product has the potential to cause cancer to the user and to golfers etc then there should be no debate-the product should be banned.

Everyone in Euroope can cite some EU regulation which is idiotic but the EU have, in my opinion, helped and aided safety for all EU citizens in various different guises.

 

[Herbie]

If a product has the potential to cause cancer to the user and to golfers etc then there should be no debate-the product should be banned.

Everyone in Euroope can cite some EU regulation which is idiotic but the EU have, in my opinion, helped and aided safety for all EU citizens in various different guises.

I disagree, the EU are a bunch of very highly paid unelected people who have shown little unity on the real big issues, taken more rediculous decisions than sensible (any group of people who debate the shape of fruit and veg are mentally questionavble in my view),have avoided enquiries regarding misappropriation of funds to say the least, if you want something that can kill you very very quickly indeed, try carbon monoxide in a confined space not to mention its over all effect (questionable as to its actual impact )on us and the earth.Who wants to give up their car? i dont see much difference in level of threat between that and controlled use of pesticides.

 

[Imurg]

So spraying your course with a pesticide that kills bugs but also gives you cancer is ok?

I'll agree with your views on the EU, Herb, but this ones a no-brainer surely?

 

[SammmeBee]

If a product has the potential to cause cancer to the user and to golfers etc then there should be no debate-the product should be banned.

Everyone in Euroope can cite some EU regulation which is idiotic but the EU have, in my opinion, helped and aided safety for all EU citizens in various different guises.

I disagree, the EU are a bunch of very highly paid unelected people who have shown little unity on the real big issues, taken more rediculous decisions than sensible (any group of people who debate the shape of fruit and veg are mentally questionavble in my view),have avoided enquiries regarding misappropriation of funds to say the least, if you want something that can kill you very very quickly indeed, try carbon monoxide in a confined space not to mention its over all effect (questionable as to its actual impact )on us and the earth.Who wants to give up their car? i dont see much difference in level of threat between that and controlled use of pesticides.

I have to agree with herb about the EU - the bigger problem is though is that the UK tend to actually enforce these ridiculous rulings whereas other members countries seem to 'gloss' over many of them....

 

[thecraw]

So spraying your course with a pesticide that kills bugs but also gives you cancer is ok?

I'll agree with your views on the EU, Herb, but this ones a no-brainer surely?

Where is the evidence that it gives you cancer? Where are the cold hard facts that back up this claim? While I'm 100% behind cleaning up our environment I would like some cold hard facts about the process of the fertilizers/pesticides before I jump onto any bandwagon. Farmers are the biggest culprits when it comes to abusing the landscape and the land, not golf courses.


Madness rules at the highest levels where a snipit is released full of ill informed facts in order to cause public outcry.

 

[Smiffy]

what about losing your ball in a sea of clover?

You can do that already if you visit Barnham Broome in Norfolk even if you keep your ball on the fairways


Interesting thread by the way

 

[Herbie]

So spraying your course with a pesticide that kills bugs but also gives you cancer is ok?

I'll agree with your views on the EU, Herb, but this ones a no-brainer surely?

I see the arguments about health issues and pesticides, but in my view they serve a purpose for better things if used sparingly and under strict controls, the old addage 'you cant un-invent the wheel' springs to mind though in a vague manner.

I have yet to see evidence of serious health issues resulting from use of/living near/working or playing near areas where pesticides have been or are regularly used in relationship to the scale of use. pesticides can like most chemical substances cause illness or death depending on the level of exposure/concentration or frequency of exposure. the number of chemicals or gasses out there in every day life, unnoticed, that could kill you instantly or in a short space of time depending on the kind of exposure or length of exposure would make most peoples heads spin and lead to us all stopping using almost everything. Industry that supplies many many things we all enjoy or take for granted have had a free run of slowly poisoning us all over many years have only in recent years had to clean up their act but only a little.

Its all about balance, the general public will always find something to stir up their collective will to stop something promoted as really serious to us all, it all depends on how its put over not how bad it is.

The anti smokers brought about banning smoking in public or work place, yet more people smoke today than ever especially the young. The evidence of what smoking can do to us is correct, the figures are not, the probabilities are not. To me the nanny climate has made that issue worse rather than better, but to me its an example of jumping on a bandwagon promoted by organised groups. politicians seeking favour, likewise with many in the medical profession who stive for what they believe the right thing yet fail to see what their action creates, we now have people binge smoking outside the office for example, concentrated smoke inhalation of 2 or 3 fags in one go, that to me is worse than smoking 20 fags casually throughout the day.

People should look as much at what pesticides provide as well as the risks, if the evidence and risks are too great then fair enough, I personally dont believe the risks are too great if strict controls and use is adhered to. if there is a less risky method with the same or greater benefit then Im all for it.

Its not that I dont see what psticides can do to us, or that I would or wouldnt support a ban, its that I wouldnt rush head long into anything and see something go underground(to coin a phrase) or cause another creation of something unknown that may take years to discover its dangerous potential. Pesticides to me are way down the list of things that make me cringe or fear. I have mentioned this before, but I will again, anyopne fancy shutting themselves in their garrage with the car and engine running and staying in that enviroment for just a short time really?

Most people are aware of that danger, its known fact yet who is out there ralleying the ban of using cars that in certain circumstances and un controlled will kill you dead as a fact.