EU pesticide vote

[SammmeBee]

I thought the nematoads were the way that most people who had the grubs/leatherjackets were dealing with them now....

Apart from spraying for fusarium if needed and applying fertiliser and iron - what else do you really need to spray your greens for anyway?

If you have a healthy sward, which you get through standard good greenkeeping practice - thatch removal, coring, sanding, top dressig, verticuting then you are really minimising the need to have to 'spray' for anything....

There are 'natural' remedies for most things anyway....

 

[Cernunnos]

Cernunnos

Is covering all the greens in black plastic realistic?

I am on a sandy links site, no drainage problems, no thatch problems, but I still get the little buggers...

It is not as easy as the text book says.

Tommy

Hiya Tommy, after reading through all these different sites on the wee little buggers (leatherjackets) I can understand why they are going to be such a problem this year, as the Autumn has been such a wet damp one & the start to the year has not been much better.

Not sure whether covering greens with black plastic is that realisic or not, but seemed to be one solution suggested on one site. Perhaps laying out a green at a time like this one at a time over the course of a week may or may not work.

Could be an interesting experiment on an area of one green & seeing if it has any validity as a treatment.

Anything is wort trying at least once.

Of course, nothing is easy as you say. Interesting to hear that its even effected a coastal track & shows how damp autumn & winter have been.

Hope you solve the problems soon.

 

[backwoodsman]

Sorry Tommy but although I sympathise, it's us who need to rethink. We want perfectly smooth & true grass to putt on - but, quite basically, it's a thoroughly unnatural or artificial "environment" and to get it, we have to drench the place with very toxic chemicals.

Yes leatherjackets and such like are a damn nuisance, but we need to remember that pesticides don't scare things to death, or creep up and push them over a cliff - they kill things because they are toxic. There's already been enough things proven to have adversely affected the environment or migrated into the food chain to make it a necessity that we think seriously about what we spread about.

No, I'm not a greenie eco-freak and life at work will be a pain in the ar$e when most of the glyphosate formulations and many residuals are knocked off the approved list. But we need to think about what we use and what our expections are. If that's "H&S gone mad" then I'm all for it

 

[Ken_A]

I am a greenie at heart, however, I love my golf and this is a bit of a dilema for me.

Here is hoping that we can use limited amounts of pestacides and herbacides etc. Or I hope some chemical company is greedy enough to see a gap in the market.

In the end if the products we use are carsnagenic then perhaps we are better off without them, especially so for the people who are putting it on the course.

I have to admit that I have high standards and dont think that I will be going back to shocking greens etc. If there was a course spraying at night under the cloke of darkness then it would certainly gain plenty of members - perhaps even me. I dont care for looks as much as quality.

I assumne there is nothing that we can do about this situation, and we will have to deal with it if the chemicals are ruled illegal for use.

 

[viscount17]

Of course the quick solution is that we all nip across to France to play as they will only pay lip service to the legislation - as usual.

Cernunnos, did your research tell you at what time of year you would be losing a green a week?

I don't know if it's these that the crows round our way were going for but we've lost a lot of turf as a result.

 

[TommyMorris]

Thanks Cernunnos

It may come down to what you say, increased greenstaff laying down sheets last thing in the day when all the golfers have gone home.....I hope it does not.

I posted this thread initially to see how much golfers would put up with, if chemicals were removed. Obviously there are still options at the moment out there and we are a long way away from golf falling over the cliff. We are getting near though....In the past few years we have moved forward very quickly (due to televised american events showing perfect surfaces.) Will a fairway full of daisies upset you, what about losing your ball in a sea of clover? A putting green riddled with disease marks?

One thing you must understand, even if the turf has been managed perfectly, ie low inputs, hollowcoring at the right time, etc, you still can get disease on your surfaces due to the environmental conditions being right.

As I have said I am on a links, I have not sprayed fungicide for 4 years, but last year I got a nasty disease called Dollar spot on my tees, I let it go without spraying.....If that hit my greens (which have the traditional finer grasses in them) then I will lose turf. Not through fault of my own, but through environmental conditions. Sometime @@@@ happens. i have seen Dollar spot affected surfaces in Holland that would honestly make you cry,they are so bad.

I hope this thread has given you guys the heads up on what may come in the future....

Cheers and may your strokes be few

Tommy

 

[Ken_A]

BTW I looked into ridding these from my garden as they really took over 2 years ago, simple answer was dose it with the pestacide or try the nematodes (sp) but these required very specific conditions to thrive. And are expensive.

 

[Herbie]

I think it is simply a rule hastily made in the one size fits all range of decisions. Golf courses create more 'green' for the world in which we live than 'grey'.
Its elsewhere where the real problems and issues lie but the EU are inept at careful rulings, only one size fits all rulings and they are inept at addressing the most damaging problems and causes.

 

[TommyMorris]

Herb

HERE! HERE! Couldnt agree more.

Tommy

 

[theeaglehunter]

This has made fascinating reading and just to give my viewpoint I would not be happy if we lost the quality of golf courses we have today. What do we look for in a good golf course in addition to a well designed layout? Manicured greens, nice fairways, attractive tees. I don't want to be playing my well designed private track in poor local muni condition (generalisation- I know some are decent!). It would be a waste of the layout / design and a huge step back for golf if we were to let conditions deteriorate.

There must be a way of maintaing golf courses to a level at which they are kept today without using 'dangerous' pesticides. If not I think I would have to say I would support their future use even under the dark of night if necessary.

Also I am sure there are other points of global environmental damage to consider / eradicate that have a larger impact than pesticides on golf courses, I know people may not agree with me here but until a suitable alternative is found I think any legislation banning pesticides would be slanderous. It would be like saying we know the damage fossil fuels do so lets pull the plug on petrol now, we will have to make do with less effective methods such as electric cars. It is not going to happen is it until similar vehicle performance can be gained from economically friendly cars. And I think that this shouldn't be allowed to occur until a reasonable alternative is discovered. I may be selfish in the scheme of things but I wouldn't want to give up the quality of my course; which as a point of noting has gained recognition for becoming so much more environmentally friendly in line with some of the best in the country.

 

[Ken_A]

I think it is simply a rule hastily made in the one size fits all range of decisions.

I dont disagree, I think very little about the folks in Europe. But perhaps if it is carsnagenic then it may be banned.

Europe - I decided it was a bad idea when they put ban on bananas that are too curved or straight. Along with other perfectly OK other fruit and Veg.

 

[ademac]

While this has made good reading, let's not get ahead of ourselves! this certain chemical hasn't been banned yet! It's just a guy's WORST fears!

 

[backwoodsman]

So, if we're all sure that spraying stuff around is fine, what would you do if your kids had a bottle of it to play with? Leave them be? Or take it off them? If the latter why?

 

[ademac]

So, if we're all sure that spraying stuff around is fine, what would you do if your kids had a bottle of it to play with? Leave them be? Or take it off them? If the latter why?

What?

 

[Cernunnos]

I'd like to a question of everyone here. How do they feel as players where they turn up to a course & there are warning signs about spraying going on around the course of dangerous chemicals. Advice to wash hands & not lick fingers etc.

If a chemical is dangerous & potentialy cancer causing, then quite franky I do feel very uneasy about playing on those days. It sometimes makes me wonder if sometimes on some courses they don't tell us.

If its a question between health & good greens, then the answer is clear.

Oh & the irony imo is the use of loads of fungicides, pesticides, chemicals & chemical fertilisers is that they are not the wonder cure they claim to be.

Now those are my feeling about chemical & having to play those courses where it still goes on, but what about everyone else?

 

[TommyMorris]

Cernunnos,

Ok, the situation on the majority of British courses is this..

Every employee that sprays has a certificate of competence.
The Head greenkeeper will decide on that morning, if, the weather conditions are suitable to spray...ie is it windy, is it going to rain, will the chemical dry on the leaf before golf gets out, have I warned the starter about the spraying, have I carried out a risk assessment on the chemical that I am spraying, is every access point to the course got a sign to say I am spraying, have I chosen the least harmful chemical to do the job?.......

You see we try our best to minimise the risk to golfers and public coming onto our courses. To be honest the risk to you guys is minimal, if not negligible.

Britain has the highest standards in Europe re pesticide application, but this legislation implies that it is not good enough, it is like cutting off the nose to stop a cold.

Tommy

 

[Cernunnos]

So, if we're all sure that spraying stuff around is fine, what would you do if your kids had a bottle of it to play with? Leave them be? Or take it off them? If the latter why?

Good point. How can we in good concience spray dangerous chemicals willy nilly everywhere (I'm not just going on about golf courses here now), without taking into account who or what will be or could potentially be exposed to it/them.

This is even before we consider the impact on the environment, the leaching out of Nitrates & other chemicals into the rivers & resivours used for drinking water etc.

Euroupe can get over zelous about certain things & certain countries are renound for barely or not even paying lip service to even sensible laws & regulations. But why should we allow ourselves to say oh, lets ignore the regulations, just because France or Italy etc just ignore sound regulations.

Would anyone want to buy a wine knowing it had de-icer or turpentine or worse in it... No. This is the sort of reason strict regulation exists.

We've all been tempted to use really strong weedkillers in our gardens to kill off everything but then we think about the effect on animals that may visit the garden or children that may, walk through to their back door past our own (some people have shared access).

In the past I've used Ant powder around the outside of the house, but after the headaches I've suffered from doing this I never would do this ever again. Just imagine if a toddler sucked its fingers after touching something like this. It just sends me cold.

 

[backwoodsman]

So, if we're all sure that spraying stuff around is fine, what would you do if your kids had a bottle of it to play with? Leave them be? Or take it off them? If the latter why?

What?

Reason I phrased it so was because there seemed to be some opinion that using fairly toxic substances on golf courses (or indeed on other sportsturf or in amenity horticulture generally) has little or no consequence. Since I doubt anyone would let their kids play with such stuff, why the casual acceptance of using it outside in the world at large?

 

[ademac]

Does anyone on the forum use bleach/bleach based products whilst cleaning their homes? Does anyone on the forum use detergents to clean their cars? Would anyone on the forum let their kids play with the bottles!?

This chemical is "almost certainly" going to be banned, it is also a "suspected" carcagenic, and as for the "rule made in the one size fits all range", The rule hasn't been made yet! I have a pesticide/fungicide licence and come in to contact with them very often. I also come into contact with a lot of other people who use them, some of these people have even mentioned that nearly all will be banned! I've not seen much evidence for these claims so I think the phrase is along the lines of "mountains and molehills", But do not get me started on MOLES!.

By the way, Does anyone on the forum know that motor oil as a carcagenic material?

 

[TommyMorris]

Ade,
Shhhh, dont let the EU know! They will be wanting us to go electric next.......

Been an interesting convo tonight.....

Sleep easy and putt well

Tommy.