EU pesticide vote

[TommyMorris]

The EU (in all its wisdom) this week has voted to limit / ban pesticide use in Europe. Severe limitations on pesticide use will be in effect on areas around schools, hospitals etc. Around 20-30% of pesticides - herbicides, fungicides and insecticides could be removed entirely. This obviously has serious ramifications for preparing pristine putting surfaces. Nobody in my industry knows what active ingredients are going to be disposed of....yet, but it is likely that a lot of chemicals that greenkeepers use to prepare and look after surfaces may be removed, and therefore surfaces may not be as good as they have been in recent years.

I would love to hear the golfers opinion of this ridiculous piece of legislation.

Tommy.

 

[USER1999]

Where possile, golf courses need to move with the times, become more environmentally friendly, and use less pestides, and more importantly, water. Over time, one of the things that will kill golf, is public opinion, and if golf is not seen to be 'green', public opinion will see it closed down. If you don't play the game, then it is seen as using too much land, too much water, too many chemicals.

Legislation is not necessarily the way, but the direction is probaly the right one.

We as golfers may need to get used to the greens not being so green and lush looking, but as long as the surface i god for putting on, so what. The same with fairway. If ou look back 100 years, couses would have been alot different t look at (and play on), but it was still golf.

 

[TommyMorris]

Murph,

You are exactly right, but are golfers prepared to drop expectations if need be? I will give you an example of a pest that is on the increase at the moment...Leatherjackets, or the larvae of the crane fly. These little grubs eat the grass roots all winter, then start on the young healthy shoots come the spring. They leave the surface like a bomb site. It looks like hundreds of pitchmarks all over the surface. The ONLY pesticide we can use is chlorpyrifos, HAZARD CLASSIFICATION - TOXIC. This is almost certainly going to be removed. So will golfers put up with pitchmark covered surfaces, and areas of turf dug up by birds looking for the grubs in the Spring?

Tommy.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I think a lot of club members (private clubs especially - a generalisation but you guys know where I'm coming from) will be up in arms if their precious course isn't pristine as they sip their G&T on the patio.

The only aspect I would demand at least plays well even if not pretty to look at are the greens. As long as the ball runs true and the speed is kept acceptible I have no issue with different green or brown hues. If a fairway is pot marked because pests aren't killed off, as long as the marks don't impact the ball (similar to playing out of a divot) then lets try and make the upkeep as environmentally friendly as we can.

 

[TommyMorris]

An example of the early damage, these little blighters can cause......and there is no practical way other than chemical to stop them.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I can see why members wouldn't be happy but if the EU ban it what recourse is there. How widespread is the problem. Do they affect particular types of course (parkland etc).

 

[ademac]

Looks pretty bad. another case of H/S gone a bit mad. Am I right in thinking that chlorpyrifos may not be banned and at the moment? How do you know that it is "almost certainly going to be banned"?

 

[Imurg]

Looking at the picture I think we've got them at my course. We also get the problem of the crows digging up the greens looking for them.

Are there any chemicals that are not so nasty that will do the trick?

 

[TommyMorris]

Homer,

This is just one example,leatherjacket infestation seems to be quite widespread at the moment. Everyone had a particularly bad year with them 2 years ago. One possible explanation for their increase, is the degradation of old residual insecticides in the soil. In the past,greenkeepers used to apply quite noxious materials that would last for years and years. They have all been banned, and now we are seeing problems such as leatherjackets and chafer grubs on the increase. In fact the common earthworm causes us major problems. Any chemical that is approved for worm killing has to be non residual ie will not last in the soil for very long (about a month!), therefore to control this pest we have to keep applying a limited range of pesticides over and over again. These also have a high probability of being removed with this new legislation.

 

[TommyMorris]

Ademac

Chlorpyrifos is an organophosphate (one of the worst pesticides) it is a suspected carcinogen and that would be the criteria for its removal.

Tommy

 

[ademac]

You obviously know your stuff Tommy. I've got pa1 & pa6 myself so find it interesting. As I said before, it's H/S gone mad IMO! But if it's going to happen my feelings are that I should accept the things I cannot change.

 

[Cernunnos]

We all need to re-learn the natural ways of managing our land & our planet. There is always a natural solution to most things & often it means hard work & careful preperation of the ground in natural ways.

Over the long tearm pesticides are bad for the ground... Very bad. I've visited plenty of courses, where signs have been up, about pesticides simply to control weeks, nettles, or whatever. Its about time clubs started taking on trainee groundspeople to train up properly in traditional environmentaly friendly ground management.

Just think, how on earth did we get on in Old Tom Morris's & James Braid's etc time & before. If they can & could maintain courses back then, then we can do the same now.

Some may argue taking on extra help will mean higher costs, though somehow I really doubt that would really be athe case. As, how much do we all think these pesticides & other chemical treatments some courses still insist upon using costs.

In-fact is a course is properly laid out on the right sort of ground, with a modecome of forethough, then should need very little doing.

I'd certainly love to look further into how courses were managed 100 & more years ago. I am sure there is a natural solution to.

And like Homer, I don't mind what a green looks like just so long as it runs true enough & is puttable.

Most modern problems on courses are actually cause I believe by overmanagement & excessive chemical use, creating a cumulative effect of the more chemicals used, the more needed. And this is wrong, very wrong & a cycle that needs to be broken.

The European unions legislation will mean that those courses that are not being more enviomentally friendly will have to learn to.

 

[TommyMorris]

Cernunnos,

Please excuse me, but I think you are looking at this through rose tinted glasses. Have you ever watched the shell world of golf from the 70's? A putting stroke was impossible on those greens, thats why player and palmer jabbed at the ball, they had to hit it hard to couteract any bounces they may get. Modern course maintenance has taken greens to such a standard that I am afraid we cannot go back to those good old days without chemicals and high input situations.

I am on a low input golf course, but I NEED an insecticide for leatherjackets, I NEED a herbicide for daisies and clover (especially in the roughs) and by the looks of things I will need a fungicide to tackle a disease called Dollar Spot that is coming in from Europe recently.

It all boils down to the golfers expectations. Is he/she prepared to go back to the good old days where you had to whack the back of the ball to get it into the hole? Some courses with Poa annua for greens spray countless times for a disease called fusarium patch, which can easily wipe out a large percentage of the surface if left unchecked. Are their members going to put up with surfaces that are quite frankly not upto scratch? Or are greenkeepers going to face the sack because of this legislation?

In Europe, Denmark nearly has a total ban on pesticide use. Greenkeepers are spraying under the cover of darkness just to protect their jobs with this crazy legislation.

Tommy

 

[Cernunnos]

Tommy Morris was this the same for coastal tracks too..?

Rose tinted specs maybe, but perhaps as you say we all need to re-learn the game as it used to be then. Perhaps we are all getting soft...lol.

I know where you are coming from & you clearly know your stuff, but I am really sure there is a natural solution out there. Like the old gardeners trick of many gardening wowes of using the ashes from the grate, as an example. Broken eggshell for sluggs. I'm not giving these as a solution to the bug you mention, but as an example that there are natural solutions out there. Whether we need to re-learn how to putt again or not.

 

[TommyMorris]

Cernunnos,

Even coastal tracks were not prepared as they are today, golfers expectations are unbelievably high compared to the past.

I will give you an example of how the golfing world has moved on...In the 70's green speeds of about 7ft were considered to be fast......80's, 10ft was considered fast, 90's, we reached the dizzying heights of 11ft at Augusta. I know of a course now in the south of England that prepares its greens at 13 and a half feet for pro am and major member events!!! The world of golf has moved on and I really cannot see it going backwards. How as an industry can we accept or learn to live with this legislation if my worst fears are realised?

Tommy.

 

[ademac]

Tommy,
If your worst fears are realised, then there really isn't a lot that you, I or anybody else can do about it! We as Humans are very resilient and resourceful and I think we'll find a way round it. If however we don't,and the world of golf comes crashing down around us then I for one will be glad that it's only golf that has perished and not the entire human race! Chill out and keep things positive and in perspective!

 

[Cernunnos]

Just done a little surfing for Crane flies & Leatherjackets & it seems there are plenty of natural treatments & precautions to these wee beasties.

First it seems they love damp & moist environments. So good drainage is a must. Removal of thatch & aerification seems to be a must. Hence why many courses do a lot of airiation this time of year, something many of us hate, but clearly its necessary according to the sites I've so far visited.

Here's one..:
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/cranefly/CFtreatment.htm

Aparently nematodes are a natural solution too, as well as encoraging birds to actually feast on the leatherjackets too. Apparently the leatherjackets can be encoraged to the surface & manually collected & disposed of by covering the grass, or in this case green with black plastic...

See here...:
http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles0206/leatherjackets.asp

So I see there are plenty of natural solutions without dealing with dangerous & damaging pesticides etc.

Edit. Here is another good site.

http://www.rolawn.co.uk/leatherjacket-killer.html

 

[TommyMorris]

Lol,

Wish I had a full membership of guys like you ade!!

Tommy

 

[forefortheday]

Ademac

Chlorpyrifos is an organophosphate (one of the worst pesticides) it is a suspected carcinogen and that would be the criteria for its removal.

Tommy

And you are asking why we should remove it?

Maybe going back to the old ways isn't such a bad thing for some of us? I jab at my putts all the time it might improve my handicap if we played on cow patches all the time!

Greenkeepers will find a way Golf will still go on.

 

[TommyMorris]

Cernunnos

Is covering all the greens in black plastic realistic?

I am on a sandy links site, no drainage problems, no thatch problems, but I still get the little buggers...

It is not as easy as the text book says.

Tommy