English Girl arrested for causing earthquake

FairwayDodger said:
This is a bit of a tangent from the OP but it needs to be challenged. It's simply not good enough to bury our heads in the sand about these countries that deny basic human rights to parts of their own population such as women or gay people and say "just don't go there". Their religious beliefs are backward, I'm afraid, and should not be pandered to.
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Sorry - you've lost me there - a countries religious beliefs are their own and until they change - either through internal change or change influenced from outside - then you go to these countries and you accept their rules and beliefs. If you don't like it you don't go. In this instance these young people knew exactly what they were doing and that what they were doing was an insult and upsetting to the locals. What 'beliefs' that insult was based upon are not really ours to question - the simple fact is that they caused serious insult and upset to the locals and were pulled up for it.

Also to conflate a religious or spiritual belief of the sort we're talking about here with gay or women's rights is taking this to somewhere it isn't. Oh that we in the west were so utterly civilised, beyond reproach and knowingly in possession of the 'right way'.

In this country it seems the vast majority have largely dumped any spiritual or religious belief - unfortunately they don't seem to have been replaced it with anything that provides any great moral basis or direction and so it is hardly surprising that the spiritual beliefs of another culture will seem alien and bizarre.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Sorry - you've lost me there - a countries religious beliefs are their own and until they change - either through internal change or change influenced from outside - then you go to these countries and you accept their rules and beliefs. If you don't like it you don't go. In this instance these young people knew exactly what they were doing and that what they were doing was an insult and upsetting to the locals. What 'beliefs' that insult was based upon are not really ours to question - the simple fact is that they caused serious insult and upset to the locals and were pulled up for it.

Also to conflate a religious or spiritual belief of the sort we're talking about here with gay or women's rights is taking this to somewhere it isn't. Oh that we in the west were so utterly civilised, beyond reproach and knowingly in possession of the 'right way'.

In this country it seems the vast majority have largely dumped any spiritual or religious belief - unfortunately they don't seem to have been replaced it with anything that provides any great moral basis or direction and so it is hardly surprising that the spiritual beliefs of another culture will seem alien and bizarre.
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I've been away on holiday so don't really know much about the incident in the OP. (Although, on the face of it, the suggestion that getting naked on a mountain caused an earthquake is insane.) I'm simply responding to the tangent you took it down with your "just don't go there" comment about countries that "don't like homosexuals". I am not content to ignore those nations that persecute sections of their population in the name of religion, whether that be gays or women or any other group.
 
FairwayDodger said:
I've been away on holiday so don't really know much about the incident in the OP. (Although, on the face of it, the suggestion that getting naked on a mountain caused an earthquake is insane.) I'm simply responding to the tangent you took it down with your "just don't go there" comment about countries that "don't like homosexuals". I am not content to ignore those nations that persecute sections of their population in the name of religion, whether that be gays or women or any other group.
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I never mentioned homosexuals...

you got wrong poster methinks...

not me...

Anyway - believing that the insult may have been the initiator of an earthquake is no more insane than you or I praying that Scotland will qualify for the next Euro Champs and if they do feeling that our prayers had been answered. Unless that is you believe in God.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
So totally wrong. So we in the 'West' know it all and understand the world, the universe and all - and our way is the civilised way - the one way - the only way. And anyone who's belief system doesn't square with ours is an uncivilised backward numbskull?

And so such as Brunei is an islamic state; considering implementing Sharia law, and has no time for homosexuals. If you don't like then don't go there. No-one forced these folks to travel to Malaysia; no-one forced them to climb a sacred mountain;no-one told them to be abusive and disrespectful. They made their bed.
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I never mentioned homosexuals...

you got wrong poster methinks...

not me...
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lol
 
FairwayDodger said:
lol
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Sorry - quite right - a few days back I think - I was simply stating a fact about Brunei as I understand it and saying that if you don't like that then don't go there. And put pressure on the UK and EU government to state to Brunei our disagreement on such beliefs - limiting if you want trade etc with that country. But we DO ourselves continue to go on holiday to countries that have laws that we believe are outdated and frankly unacceptable. But that is their right - and our choice.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Sorry - quite right - a few days back I think - I was simply stating a fact about Brunei as I understand it and saying that if you don't like that then don't go there. And put pressure on the UK and EU government to state to Brunei our disagreement on such beliefs - limiting if you want trade etc with that country. But we DO ourselves continue to go on holiday to countries that have laws that we believe are outdated and frankly unacceptable. But that is their right - and our choice.
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And this is the point I was quibbling about. (Might have been a few days ago to you but I haven't been here over the last week so catching up.)

It is not the right (or should not be) of these countries to persecute sections of their population just for existing. People have to live in these backward countries and face persecution on a daily basis - they don't have the option to "just don't go there".

I wish the "international community" would do more about these nations, for example ostracise them as they did with South Africa during apartheid. Instead we pander to them, make excuses for their religious and cultural beliefs and even, unbelievably, take major international events like the world cup there.
 
FairwayDodger said:
And this is the point I was quibbling about. (Might have been a few days ago to you but I haven't been here over the last week so catching up.)

It is not the right (or should not be) of these countries to persecute sections of their population just for existing. People have to live in these backward countries and face persecution on a daily basis - they don't have the option to "just don't go there".

I wish the "international community" would do more about these nations, for example ostracise them as they did with South Africa during apartheid. Instead we pander to them, make excuses for their religious and cultural beliefs and even, unbelievably, take major international events like the world cup there.
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indeed - and if we are not to be hypocrites in these things we best stop going on holiday to a lot of countries that are rather 'behind the curve' in their thinking.

This incident was about respect for others cultures and beliefs, and western arrogance, when visiting a country where these are different to ours. I am told that in Germany crossing a main road other than at a defined crossing point is a no-no. May seem very very silly to me when the road is quiet - but when in Germany I adhere.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
indeed - and if we are not to be hypocrites in these things we best stop going on holiday to a lot of countries that are rather 'behind the curve' in their thinking.

This incident was about respect for others cultures and beliefs, and western arrogance, when visiting a country where these are different to ours. I am told that in Germany crossing a main road other than at a defined crossing point is a no-no. May seem very very silly to me when the road is quiet - but when in Germany I adhere.
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I think it's a bit of a push to compare crossing roads at the right point, with persecution of minorities in other countries.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
indeed - and if we are not to be hypocrites in these things we best stop going on holiday to a lot of countries that are rather 'behind the curve' in their thinking.

This incident was about respect for others cultures and beliefs, and western arrogance, when visiting a country where these are different to ours. I am told that in Germany crossing a main road other than at a defined crossing point is a no-no. May seem very very silly to me when the road is quiet - but when in Germany I adhere.
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Indeed, I think this incident is a quite different matter than your somewhat throwaway comment that irked me.

Regardless of how silly a local superstition like this may seem, a tourist is stupid not to adhere to it. I would, however, put the actions of these backpackers down to the recklessness and naivety of youth rather than "western arrogance".

Oh, I often violated that German crossing rule but I did feel like a bit of a villain for doing so! :o
 
CheltenhamHacker said:
I think it's a bit of a push to compare crossing roads at the right point, with persecution of minorities in other countries.
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The young folk in Malaysia were not being persecuted - they were being disrespectful and arrogant to their hosts. I simply make the point that something in one country can seem silly to folks from another not used to the restriction, habit or belief. It's actually, as you say, a very different situation from the sorts of persecution (usually sexual or gender related) you mention.

The young folk should have not been so stupid and arrogant to think it was OK to disrespect the beliefs of their hosts, no matter how illogical and silly they might have thought these beliefs to be.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
The young folk in Malaysia were not being persecuted - they were being disrespectful and arrogant to their hosts. I simply make the point that something in one country can seem silly to folks from another not used to the restriction, habit or belief. It's actually, as you say, a very different situation from the sorts of persecution (usually sexual or gender related) you mention.

The young folk should have not been so stupid and arrogant to think it was OK to disrespect the beliefs of their hosts, no matter how illogical and silly they might have thought these beliefs to be.
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Moving on from the bigger issues, and focusing on this one, I would be surprised if they actually knew about the religious beliefs around the mountain. Having been travelling briefly, I know of people who have stripped off halfway up mountains for pictures, who had no idea of not about the status of the mountain. I doubt that they deliberatly "disrespected the beliefs of their hosts", IMO
 
She could`ve a least got her norks out on TV the other day, when she gave her statement to the press, so we could`ve seen what all the fuss was about!:thup:
Spoilsport.:whistle:
 
CheltenhamHacker said:
Moving on from the bigger issues, and focusing on this one, I would be surprised if they actually knew about the religious beliefs around the mountain. Having been travelling briefly, I know of people who have stripped off halfway up mountains for pictures, who had no idea of not about the status of the mountain. I doubt that they deliberatly "disrespected the beliefs of their hosts", IMO
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BiB - my understanding is that their guide was telling them all about how the mountain had strong spiritual meaning for the local people - and the travellers told the guide to get lost and not to be so stupid when he appealed to them to not strip off - when he was telling them very clearly that it was very disrespectful. They knew.
 
In many ways I think the young lady and her family were very grown up about it... it was a silly mistake to ignore the local customs, they admitted it and they went off with a wrap on the knuckles.. time to move on and return to normal life.. (unlike the Sun or mirror which ran something like.. 'my boobies caused an earthquake')
 
All just over reported and sensationalised by the press. A bit of high jinx that went too far, that's all. Not really a story but bring the ridiculous earthquake scenario into it coupled with the threat of a 3 month jail term imposed by these backward people on innocent western tourists having a bit of fun and hey presto, the "it's an outrage, something must be done!" brigade are out in force. Can't believe so many get suckered in every time. The end result was very similar to what you'd expect anywhere for a public decency offence.
 
vkurup said:
In many ways I think the young lady and her family were very grown up about it... it was a silly mistake to ignore the local customs, they admitted it and they went off with a wrap on the knuckles.. time to move on and return to normal life.. (unlike the Sun or mirror which ran something like.. 'my boobies caused an earthquake')
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I agree - I think they have dealt with it fine; the lass's contrition is obvious. And that should be the end of it - sending out a warning to us all to respect local cultures and beliefs - no matter how archaic or bizarre these might seem.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
BiB - my understanding is that their guide was telling them all about how the mountain had strong spiritual meaning for the local people - and the travellers told the guide to get lost and not to be so stupid when he appealed to them to not strip off - when he was telling them very clearly that it was very disrespectful. They knew.
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Hearsay
 
Fyldewhite said:
All just over reported and sensationalised by the press. A bit of high jinx that went too far, that's all. Not really a story but bring the ridiculous earthquake scenario into it coupled with the threat of a 3 month jail term imposed by these backward people on innocent western tourists having a bit of fun and hey presto, the "it's an outrage, something must be done!" brigade are out in force. Can't believe so many get suckered in every time. The end result was very similar to what you'd expect anywhere for a public decency offence.
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I agree.gif
 
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