Do we need grooves?

BLAM

BLAM

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My German isn't all that but I was intrigued by these photos of a German iron manufacturer selling what appears to be grooveless clubs:

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http://www.marken-golf.de/golfshop/...414c7668bf67c5155107386&w=1680&h=1020#Ziel444

Presumably there must be a purpose to grooves so what's the idea here?
 
Imurg said:
Don't the grooves work like a tyre tread - channeling mud and grass away from the face..?
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basically yes - if you never have grass etc between the club and ball you don't need the groves. the analogy to tyres is sound, and a slick club would work fine in perfect conditions...
 
Needed grooves today.

Flyers from all the water between ball and club-face!

Grooves give consistence under varying conditions, If it's dry, no need for grooves. Just don't play early morning, when it's damp/reainin, go in the rough etc!
 
Just thinking logically grooves must do something else why would there have been the controversy over the Ping Eye 2s (u-grooves) back in the day? However the USGA state themselves that
two-thirds of golf balls sold are surlyn-covered balls which show little spin effect from different groove designs
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and one would have thought this manufacturer must have a reason behind his choice.

Shinyest ever shineys though!
 
BLAM said:
Just thinking logically grooves must do something else why would there have been the controversy over the Ping Eye 2s (u-grooves) back in the day? However the USGA state themselves that and one would have thought this manufacturer must have a reason behind his choice.

Shinyest ever shineys though!
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G1BB0 said:
in the split second a club meets the ball do grooves make a mahoosive difference?
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As pointed out above, the grooves do not grip the ball, they just give muck, grass, water etc. somewhere to go so the ball grips on the club face.
 
I have heard of this before, however, when you strike the ball does it not try to "slide" up the club face. The grooves then impart the spin on the ball.
 
To me they work on the same principle as slick race tyres. The more surface area touching the road = more grip so the more ball touching the clubface = more grip.
 
i played with a buttery soft pro v at the weekend and there was alot of the ball left on the club face when i hit it with a wedge. surely the grooves are responsible for the friction?

in my view the grooves bit into the ball. how would that grooveless iron get the same bite out of it?

whats the point of the extra cnc milled faces on wedges then?
 
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garyinderry said:
surely the grooves are responsible for the friction?
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A tiny tiny bit maybe, but most of it is the face - granted a clean contact.


garyinderry said:
in my view the grooves bit into the ball.
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You're entitled to your view - in the same way that science is entitled to it's view.

If by 'bit' you mean damaged the surface, then you'd have a case. The original Ping Eye2 clubs that caused all the commotion when groove rule changes were introduced originally had sharp square grooves but players complained about them chewing up balls. Ping rounded off the corners of the grooves but doing that broke the rule about how close together the grooves could be. They tested the difference that it made to spin and was negligible, but they weren't so harsh on golf balls.


garyinderry said:
how would that grooveless iron get the same bite out of it?
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Friction between the surface of the club and the ball.
Think of slick tyres. More surface area contact, more grip.

The article I linked to above mentions that Ralph Maltby built and played with a set of irons with no grooves just to prove to people that given a clean contact it wasn't the grooves that created the spin.


garyinderry said:
whats the point of the extra cnc milled faces on wedges then?
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More 'groove' to remove water, dirt etc. away from the club face?
Maybe they needed something new to 'sell' it to the public and white wedges wouldn't look good?
 
Thinking about it, we all already play with a grooveless club. For most of us it only has between 9 and 11 degrees of loft yet we still manage to get between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm's on the ball.
 
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Originally Posted by garyinderry
how would that grooveless iron get the same bite out of it?


Friction between the surface of the club and the ball.
Think of slick tyres. More surface area contact, more grip.


if pressure = force / area


how can a club with the same force and more area inpart equal or more pressure on a golf ball to impart spin when you increase the surface area?


where is scienceboy when you need him? ;)
 
garyinderry said:
if pressure = force / area


how can a club with the same force and more area inpart equal or more pressure on a golf ball to impart spin when you increase the surface area?
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Not sure it's pressure you are after..... friction?

A wet surface will produce less spin (players used to 'grease' their drivers for more distance with LESS spin) on a wet day swing your driver in the rough and then hit the ball..... :whistle:

More surface area = more friction..... but not if it's wet, so you need grooves.... enough to expel enough water to retain 'some' control on the ball....... same with tyres.
 
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