Debate about whether ball is in hazard...

[AmandaJR]

Hiya.

Pairs matchplay yesterday afternoon. One of the players is someone I've had to gently remind about rules in the past so was quite pleased when his partner asked him about replacing a marked ball on the green and he said "ask Amanda, she knows the rules". I think it was a compliment!! Anyhow I felt confident that his partner could replace the ball on the green even though he had marked it. His partner said "but I always thought..." and I quite firmly told him the rule. I was right wasn't I ??

Anyhow, onwards a few holes and my partner in a bunker and totally nails her shot over the green and into trees that line the ditch behind the green. Ensues a debate as opponents claim it's not a hazard so provisional required and go ahead to search. As the motto on here is "be prepared" I carry the long-winded set of local rules provided by the club where it stated the said ditch is a lateral water hazard. So partner and I (youngster so deferring to the oldie in the team for help!) decide to take a 2 club lengths lateral penalty drop from where the ball entered the hazard, no nearer the pin etc. Opponent says how do we know it entered the hazard as the area is very dense woodland/brambles behind the water filled ditch. The hazard has no stakes whatsover defining its boundary so I guess I persauded them it was almost certain the ball would have dropped into the hazard (trees being part of it...)which is the most likely course it would have taken. They reluctantly agreed as they had both messed up the hole and were hoping to get a half I think! My partner then went on to win the hole but felt some, shall we say, tension in the air.

Do you think we did the right thing?

Incidently on the next hole there was casual water as we'd had torrential rain. I was some way down the left side of the fairway having nailed my drive (ok so only just hanging onto a hook at this stage!) and partner and other opponent on the other side. I turned to see him pick up his ball from a big puddle in the rough/edge of fairway and walk around it to the fairway side and drop. Absolutely not nearest point of relief and so different a next shot from the short stuff and not the sopping thick rough. He nailed a 3 wood - boo! Thing is I didn't like to shout across bearing in mind what had gone before...asked my partner what he said and she confirmed he said "I'll take a drop from this water". Potentially he was playing on her lack of confidence rather than asking me but can't really be sure. He won the hole with a birdie and I did mention to him afterwards that such drops had to be NPOR and didn't think from where I stood that was what he'd done but in the spirit of the game I didn't want to call him on it.

Opinions guys please. As ever when I have incidents/doubts about rulings I find establishing 100% what was/is right means I'll be sure next time!

Thanks.

 

[Imurg]

When there's any doubt as to whether a ball is in a hazard or not you have to assume it isn't - by that I mean you must be certain or virtually certain that the ball is in. As there was jungle behind it is conceivable that the ball cleared the hazard and is being played with by monkeys..

So to my mind the ball should have been "lost" rather than assume it's in the hazard

Probably did the right thing on the Casual Water drop - you mentioned that you had doubts about his dropping abilities and that should suffice. Unless you were actually there it's tricky to be sure. As long as you won - if you lost I'd claim the Match.....

 

[North Mimms]

1) Marking ball. checked this one recently...Whoever marked the ball should replace it OR their partner should replace it.
IE not a third party.

2) not too clear about the geography of the hazard. Are the trees behind the ditch and considered in the hazard?

3) That's the old idea that NPR stands for nicest point of relief!

 

[AmandaJR]

When there's any doubt as to whether a ball is in a hazard or not you have to assume it isn't - by that I mean you must be certain or virtually certain that the ball is in. As there was jungle behind it is conceivable that the ball cleared the hazard and is being played with by monkeys..

So to my mind the ball should have been "lost" rather than assume it's in the hazard

Probably did the right thing on the Casual Water drop - you mentioned that you had doubts about his dropping abilities and that should suffice. Unless you were actually there it's tricky to be sure. As long as you won - if you lost I'd claim the Match.....

The boundary of the hazard is unclear which is the major problem in being virtually certain of where the ball might have ended up. We lost! We were 1 up til the 15th (casual water drop and subsequent birdie to my par!) and lost the 17th...boo.

1) Marking ball. checked this one recently...Whoever marked the ball should replace it OR their partner should replace it.
IE not a third party.

2) not too clear about the geography of the hazard. Are the trees behind the ditch and considered in the hazard?

3) That's the old idea that NPR stands for nicest point of relief!

1) - Good I was right then...

2) - Nothing staked or in the rules to define where it starts/ends.

3) - Agreed and he took the nicest as the rough was very tough to get out of and no way a 3 wood!

 

[Colin L]

What action-packed, dramatic golf you play, Amanda. Quick answers:

Yes your partner can replace your marked ball (20-3a).

You say the later water hazard is not marked in any way in which case you have to define it by its natural margins, and it sounds to me as if the trees etc would be beyond the further margin of the ditch and therefore not in the hazard. You certainly don't have knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball went into the hazard. Indeed it seems to me quite the opposite - you have virtual certainty it went into the trees! So if I have interpreted the scene correctly, you made an error in proceeding under Rule 26 and should have taken stroke and distance for a lost ball under 27-1. So in this case, you played from a wrong place and should have immediately lost the hole.

If your opponent did not correctly establish the NPR and drop there (and you are certain he didn't), he played from a wrong place and should have lost the hole (20-7).

 

[AmandaJR]

What action-packed, dramatic golf you play, Amanda. Quick answers:

Yes your partner can replace your marked ball (20-3a).

You say the later water hazard is not marked in any way in which case you have to define it by its natural margins, and it sounds to me as if the trees etc would be beyond the further margin of the ditch and therefore not in the hazard. You certainly don't have knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball went into the hazard. Indeed it seems to me quite the opposite - you have virtual certainty it went into the trees! So if I have interpreted the scene correctly, you made an error in proceeding under Rule 26 and should have taken stroke and distance for a lost ball under 27-1. So in this case, you played from a wrong place and should have immediately lost the hole.

If your opponent did not correctly establish the NPR and drop there (and you are certain he didn't), he played from a wrong place and should have lost the hole (20-7).

Thanks Colin. That makes sense in how to define the margin of a hazard without any stakes. Looks as if the match score would have been the same as we'd have lost 14 and they'd have lost 15 for not playing correctly to the rules. In terms of his NPR drop then I guess I should have made him re-drop or has he already contravened the rules with his 1st "attempt"?

"Action-Packed" - well how I wish as it was over 5 hours

 

[Colin L]

In terms of his NPR drop then I guess I should have made him re-drop or has he already contravened the rules with his 1st "attempt"?

If he had not made a stroke at his incorrectly dropped ball, he could correct the error without penalty (Rule 20-6).

 

[BTatHome]

I would of hoped he marked his ball position before picking up from the casual water ... How else are you to determine the 'nearest' part.

 

[Colin L]

I would of hoped he marked his ball position before picking up from the casual water ... How else are you to determine the 'nearest' part.

It's not actually a requirement but always a good idea to mark - if you can without needing snorkel and flippers to get to it.

Best practice when dealing with relief situations is not to lift your ball in the first place but to wait until you have checked out your options and where the ball will end up when dropped, just in case the best option is to play the ball as it lies.

 

[North Mimms]

It's not actually a requirement but always a good idea to mark - if you can without needing snorkel and flippers to get to it.

Best practice when dealing with relief situations is not to lift your ball in the first place but to wait until you have checked out your options and where the ball will end up when dropped, just in case the best option is to play the ball as it lies.

I tend to mark NPR (nearest not nicest!) with a tee, leaving my ball where it is, and see what it's like before lifting ball

 

[duncan mackie]

regarding the NPR, I mark both the ball and the NPR because the ball can go forwards from an NPR once landed, and still be no nearer the hole than the original ball,and thus legal. If I don't pick someone up at the time I wouldn't mention it afterwards - certainly not still on the course anyway.

people confuse the replacement because they learn the wrong way - from experience rather than the rules. the ball can be replaced by the player, the player's partner, OR the person who originally marker it!

Colin's covered the hazard situation.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

regarding the NPR, I mark both the ball and the NPR because the ball can go forwards from an NPR once landed, and still be no nearer the hole than the original ball,and thus legal. If I don't pick someone up at the time I wouldn't mention it afterwards - certainly not still on the course anyway.

people confuse the replacement because they learn the wrong way - from experience rather than the rules. the ball can be replaced by the player, the player's partner, OR the person who originally marker it!

Colin's covered the hazard situation.

Is this a recent change to the rules. I am aware that that's the rule today - but it didn't used to be - whoever marked and lifted your ball had to replace it. But still a wee clarification. In a medal (say) a fellow competitor marks and lifts my ball and chucks it to me. In this scenario he must replace it. If I do I am in breach.

 

[BTatHome]

Is this a recent change to the rules. I am aware that that's the rule today - but it didn't used to be - whoever marked and lifted your ball had to replace it. But still a wee clarification. In a medal (say) a fellow competitor marks and lifts my ball and chucks it to me. In this scenario he must replace it. If I do I am in breach.

I think "the ball can be replaced by the player, the player's partner, OR the person who originally marker it!" covers pretty much everyone that would normally be involved (?)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think "the ball can be replaced by the player, the player's partner, OR the person who originally marker it!" covers pretty much everyone that would normally be involved (?)

Just checked the rule (20-3). if I replaced the ball I would be in breach and suffer one shot penalty. The person who marked it was not me, nor was he my partner, and I wasn't the person who originally marked it. I think I have been in breach when the 'new?' rule was made aware to me. I am fairly sure that in an individual comp, someone in my three ball has marked my ball and I have replaced it and given the player his ball marker back. That's a breach. Oops. Read, listen and learn.

 

[BTatHome]

Just checked the rule (20-3). if I replaced the ball I would be in breach and suffer one shot penalty. The person who marked it was not me, nor was he my partner, and I wasn't the person who originally marked it. I think I have been in breach when the 'new?' rule was made aware to me. I am fairly sure that in an individual comp, someone in my three ball has marked my ball and I have replaced it and given the player his ball marker back. That's a breach. Oops. Read, listen and learn.

Why is It a breach, the rule only mentions 3 people that can replace the ball, and you are one of them !

 

[North Mimms]

Just checked the rule (20-3). if I replaced the ball I would be in breach and suffer one shot penalty. The person who marked it was not me, nor was he my partner, and I wasn't the person who originally marked it. I think I have been in breach when the 'new?' rule was made aware to me. I am fairly sure that in an individual comp, someone in my three ball has marked my ball and I have replaced it and given the player his ball marker back. That's a breach. Oops. Read, listen and learn.

when the rule says "player" it means the person whose ball it is, ie you

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

when the rule says "player" it means the person whose ball it is, ie you

I've just re-read and you are quite correct - I don't know why I thought otherwise. I think I find the idea quite odd that ANYONE I authorise to mark and lift my ball can do so - and then I can replace it. Why odd - well I am pretty meticulous about replacing my ball - even when by being less than precise I could gain a small advantage. If I don't lift then clearly I can't be absolutely precise when I replace.

Can anyone help on was the rule changed. If the intention is to speed up play I can think of many others aspects of playing the game that would help far better on that front.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I've just re-read and you are quite correct - I don't know why I thought otherwise. I think I find the idea quite odd that ANYONE I authorise to mark and lift my ball can do so - and then I can replace it. Why odd - well I am pretty meticulous about replacing my ball - even when by being less than precise I could gain a small advantage. If I don't lift then clearly I can't be absolutely precise when I replace.

Can anyone help on was the rule changed. If the intention is to speed up play I can think of many others aspects of playing the game that would help far better on that front.

Excellent site here about the history of the Rules with access to previous editions.

http://www.ruleshistory.com/index.html.

From that it looks like it was 1980, 32 years ago!

In 1976 relevant Rule (22-3a) said

"A ball to be placed or replaced under the Rules or Local Rules shall be placed by the player, his partner or either of their caddies, on the spot where the ball lay, except when a Rule permits it to be placed elsewhere."

Rule in 1980 says

"A ball to be placed under the Rules or Local Rules shall be placed by the player. A ball to be replaced shall be replaced by the player, his partner or the person who lifted it, on the spot where the ball lay. In any such case, the player shall be responsible for any breach of the Rules or Local Rules."


Must admit for some years after that I still thought it had to be replaced by the player.

Happy to be corrected if that is wrong.

 

[duncan mackie]

Can anyone help on was the rule changed.

1980

 

[duncan mackie]

Why is It a breach, the rule only mentions 3 people that can replace the ball, and you are one of them !

:thup: