Couldn't positively identify ball

[Rufuss Thoo]

Hi everyone. OK, so this is a tricky one, I think. Picture a par 3 with deep hazard (stream steep embankment down to a stream) all along the left side and wrapping around the green (just a yard or so from the fringe). During my previous round I hit a 6 iron, failing to account for the following breeze and we all surmised I'd gone well into the hazard at the back-left of the green. We didn't even bother looking for the ball and I dropped at the agreed entry point and played the hole out.

Today I hit a tee shot on the same hole and, accounting for a good breeze today, I hit a 7 iron. We were pretty sure the ball had gone into the hazard at the front-left of the green but the exact entry point is hidden by a tree half-way along the fairway. We arrived at the green and I happily found I'd stayed out of the hazard, hard against the hazard marker but in play. I took my free drop away from the marker and chipped it close. Before I putted out my score-marker was walking toward the back of the green where he thought his ball had landed. Instead he found another of my balls. They are all marked with the same unique markings, so there was no doubt it was mine. I was sure I had chipped the correct ball today so putted out for a par. He tossed me the other ball before putting his own. While confirming it was mine and assuming it must have been the one I thought I'd lost during the previous round, I realised they were both numbered the same. So basically they were identical and there really was no way to be totally certain which of the 2 balls I had played - the correct ball from today or the ball I'd thought I'd lost the previous round. We discussed the matter with the group and they left it to me and my score-marker to determine. We agreed that, on the basis I hit a shorter club today and had found the ball where we had believed it had entered the hazard, it was most likely I had played the correct ball. So I carded, and he marked me for a par.

However, I cannot say with certainty that I positively identified my ball (the one I was playing today) and I believe that means under the rules I played an 'incorrect ball' and should have 1) taken a general penalty of 2 shots AND 2) treated the ball as lost and either played another off the tee with stroke and distance (another penalty) or dropped where we had believed the ball had crossed the hazard and played my 3rd from there (another penalty). Either way I would have carded a 6 (at least) not a 3. Is this correct and have I signed an incorrect card.? Should I disqualify myself? Thanks.

 

[Colin L]

It sounds to me that you found your ball in the location you expected it to be whereas the other ball was in a different one where you wouldn't expect it to be. . Was there any likelhood that you got the line of flight and distance so wrong that the ball your marker found was the one you had just played? On the face of it, I'd be happy that you had found and played the correct ball.

 

[Rufuss Thoo]

Thanks for the comment Colin. The balls were on very similar lines, both finished resting against the hazard barrier and were only around 15 yards or so apart. I know that sounds like a good full club difference but truth be told if I flush my 7 iron (which I did) and don't quite catch my 6 iron, I can easily hit the 7 iron farther than the 6 iron. With a bit of a breeze in the mix, the difference wasn't enough for me (now in hindsight) to be certain. The best I can do is say that "on the probability of things" I hit the correct ball. My reading of the rules has me thinking that isn't good enough.

To complicate matters I took out second spot in the A grade comp so there are prizes to consider and the guy that missed out by coming in 3rd. I was 6 shots clear of him so nothing would have changed if I'd carded the correct score but if I have breached the "sign an incorrect card" rule then I really should be DQ'd and he should take 2nd place. We're not talking major stuff here (although $50 is $50) but there's also the kudos and bragging rights etc.

 

[rulefan]

we all surmised I'd gone well into the hazard at the back-left of the green. We didn't even bother looking for the ball and I dropped at the agreed entry point and played the hole out.
Today I hit a tee shot on the same hole and, accounting for a good breeze today, I hit a 7 iron. We were pretty sure the ball had gone into the hazard at the front-left of the green

In those circumstances I agree with Colin

 

[mikejohnchapman]

It's a tough one as most people mark their ball the same way everytime and the numbers in a sleeve are the same.

If both balls were found in the vircinity of the green and you were unable to positively identify "today's" ball then surely you have to proceed as if the ball was lost don't you?

 

[Rufuss Thoo]

Yeah, I think you are right Mike. I messaged the club GM and he agreed the key is that I could not definitively identify which ball is which, and under the rules that isn't good enough. I should have proceeded as if the ball was lost, and also should have incurred the general penaly because I played the 'wrong ball' before discovering the other one, but didn't and therefore I did sign for an incorrect score under the rules. I've DQ'd myself. The good news is that I'll get a stroke back on my handicap because that good card won't count LOL.

 

[BubbaP]

Maybe you start putting the date on your golf balls in future ???

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I'm sure those that don't put any mark on their ball at all should dq themselves as well.

Imagine how many Titleist 1 are in play on a course at any given time without any identifying marking on them.

 

[Rufuss Thoo]

Maybe you start putting the date on your golf balls in future ???

Now there's an idea LOL
Or maybe I should just stop hitting them left into the hazard ...

 

[Rufuss Thoo]

I'm sure those that don't put any mark on their ball at all should dq themselves as well.

Imagine how many Titleist 1 are in play on a course at any given time without any identifying marking on them.

Not to mention those that 'find' their ball, despite the brand being different to one they just hit ;-)

 

[Slab]

happily found I'd stayed out of the hazard, hard against the hazard marker but in play. I took my free drop away from the marker and chipped it close

Excuse my ignorance (and I know this wasn't the point of your post) I would usually remove the marker stake in that situation and play from where the ball came to rest (unless its an OOB marker)

What is the 'free drop' option in that scenario ?

 

[rulefan]

Excuse my ignorance (and I know this wasn't the point of your post) I would usually remove the marker stake in that situation and play from where the ball came to rest (unless its an OOB marker)

What is the 'free drop' option in that scenario ?

Unusual Covid times. Stake are now being classed as Immoveable.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

It's a tough one as most people mark their ball the same way everytime and the numbers in a sleeve are the same.

If both balls were found in the vircinity of the green and you were unable to positively identify "today's" ball then surely you have to proceed as if the ball was lost don't you?

It's a belter of a query, is this.

Something which I think is relevant is this.
On the previous round, when the ball was concluded to be in the hazard, was it possible that there could be a ball where the second ball was found but it could have evaded someone looking for a ball
( bearing in mind, there would have been a search , if cursory, in the first round)
Or,
was the location such that any ball there would have been seen.? E. g. Open, short grass...

if the second option, it is logical that the first ball was not the one played in the second round.

So, he has played the correct ball in the second round.?

 

[rulefan]

It's a belter of a query, is this.
...was it possible that there could be a ball where the second ball was found but it could have evaded someone looking for a ball

........ marked with the same unique markings?

 

[salfordlad]

Dear Rufuss
You seem to have done a lot of anguishing over how the rules need to treat your situation. The rules don't prescribe what you needed to do, YOU have to decide how your situation fit the rules and, specifically, whether you had enough information to be confident that you played the correct ball. In post #1 you expressed a view that you were confident ("I was sure I had chipped the correct ball") and a number of respondents commented (and I agree with them) that appeared sufficient for no penalty to apply. You subsequently reversed your previously stated confidence, and that reversal has gathered steam in subsequent posts, indicating that you could not be confident that you identified your ball correctly due to the emerging knowledge of an identical other ball. The rules cannot help you out of this dilemma - it is your decision - which set of 'facts' are correct. But when the final vibe you convey is you were not sure - and this is apparently what you took to the Committee - then the correct rules treatment is you could not identify your ball, so it was lost, so you were required to play under stroke and distance. As you failed to do so, you played from a wrong place and as you played from significantly closer to the green than where the previous stroke was made, that wrong place was a serious breach. The rules require such an error to be corrected before playing from the next tee. You failed to do that, so the correct rules outcome is DQ. Your suggestion that you are DQ because you submitted a card with an incorrect score is a misunderstanding.
I look forward to your next rules adventure on the course.

 

[DickInShorts]

I use 3 different colour sharpies on each sleeve - 1 red 1 black 1 blue - so I don’t often end up with same numbered balls in the same colour (apart from potentially when starting a new dozen before the previous ones have all been lost)
this means my provisional is always has different colour markings to my first ball even though they might both be a Vice 2.
it’s highly unlikely would find myself in the OP situation due to this

 

[Swinglowandslow]

........ marked with the same unique markings?

The markings don't come into the possible scenario I have outlined.
My query was about whether the first ball could not possibly have been where the second one was played from, because the topography of the hole was such that had the first ball been there, it would have been in plain sight and obvious in the first round. And thus found.
And if it wasn't seen at the time of the first round , it was because it wasn't there. Therefore it couldn't be the ball that was played in the second round.
Only those familiar with the hole layout would know.

 

[BubbaP]

........ marked with the same unique markings?

Interesting choice of words.. ?

 

[SammmeBee]

If you can’t id the ball you’re are playing then it’s lost!

 

[Rufuss Thoo]

Dear Rufuss
You seem to have done a lot of anguishing over how the rules need to treat your situation. The rules don't prescribe what you needed to do, YOU have to decide how your situation fit the rules and, specifically, whether you had enough information to be confident that you played the correct ball. In post #1 you expressed a view that you were confident ("I was sure I had chipped the correct ball") and a number of respondents commented (and I agree with them) that appeared sufficient for no penalty to apply. You subsequently reversed your previously stated confidence, and that reversal has gathered steam in subsequent posts, indicating that you could not be confident that you identified your ball correctly due to the emerging knowledge of an identical other ball. The rules cannot help you out of this dilemma - it is your decision - which set of 'facts' are correct. But when the final vibe you convey is you were not sure - and this is apparently what you took to the Committee - then the correct rules treatment is you could not identify your ball, so it was lost, so you were required to play under stroke and distance. As you failed to do so, you played from a wrong place and as you played from significantly closer to the green than where the previous stroke was made, that wrong place was a serious breach. The rules require such an error to be corrected before playing from the next tee. You failed to do that, so the correct rules outcome is DQ. Your suggestion that you are DQ because you submitted a card with an incorrect score is a misunderstanding.
I look forward to your next rules adventure on the course.

Thanks for the detailed response salfordlad. Yes, at the time I was 'sure' but became less so when I considered all the factors. I suspect being 'sure' was in part wishful thinking at the time.
Because I like understanding and having clarity around the rules, can you explain the last bit of your advice? Is my misunderstanding a timing issue (because the DQ results from the first offence), or is my belief that submitting an incorrect card results in a DQ wrong?
You probably won't have to wait long - I seem to have a few, although this is the most unusual to date.