Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?

Ethan said:
Your question misses the point. It isn't a matter of UK or EU policy being better or worse. Each one can be examined in its own right. The EU policy was OK, but the execution was bad, and they got screwed by AZ. The contracts for EU and UK were recently published and in fact the EU one was signed one day before the UK. The problem with EU rollout is partly due to that supply problem, and also to do with slower gear up in member states.

But none of that is relevant to the UK position, except to reinforce the point that relying on AZ was an unwise strategy.

Trying to create a spurious false dichotomy (a form of whatabouttery), or using a straw man argument is indeed trolling.
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No .

I am just trying to work out why you can never say anything positive about this country's handling of the crisis.

There have been plenty of opportunities for us to rightly criticise the Government over this but I don't think the vaccination programme is one of those occasions.

If anything it is yourself that is guilty of using spurious arguments, perhaps based upon your views on another subject which we may no longer discuss.
 
Ethan said:
Your question misses the point. It isn't a matter of UK or EU policy being better or worse. Each one can be examined in its own right. The EU policy was OK, but the execution was bad, and they got screwed by AZ. The contracts for EU and UK were recently published and in fact the EU one was signed one day before the UK. The problem with EU rollout is partly due to that supply problem, and also to do with slower gear up in member states.

But none of that is relevant to the UK position, except to reinforce the point that relying on AZ was an unwise strategy.

Trying to create a spurious false dichotomy (a form of whatabouttery), or using a straw man argument is indeed trolling.
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C'mon it is just your view, not gospel please respect those who disagree and may know a bit about complex multi-national supply chains.

The UK has a declared strategy of avoiding supply chain vulnerability and agile manufacturing. The AZ supply chain debugged and operational because of the prompt UK investment and contracting.

Our vaccination programme is something to be proud of and has/is saving lives.
 
drdel said:
C'mon it is just your view, not gospel please respect those who disagree and may know a bit about complex multi-national supply chains.

The UK has a declared strategy of avoiding supply chain vulnerability and agile manufacturing. The AZ supply chain debugged and operational because of the prompt UK investment and contracting.

Our vaccination programme is something to be proud of and has/is saving lives.
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You may have experience in complex multi-national supply chains, but if you read above you will see that is not the issue. The issue is identifying the vaccine development programmes most likely to succeed and the companies most likely to deliver them. Have you a lot of experience of those too?

The people who do that in big pharma companies use reliable and experienced manufacturers. That is how you avoid supply chain vulnerability.

The vaccination programme is excellent, but that is due to the efforts of the NHS.
 
MetalMickie said:
No .

I am just trying to work out why you can never say anything positive about this country's handling of the crisis.

There have been plenty of opportunities for us to rightly criticise the Government over this but I don't think the vaccination programme is one of those occasions.

If anything it is yourself that is guilty of using spurious arguments, perhaps based upon your views on another subject which we may no longer discuss.
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You were the one who raised the EU, pal. Nothing to do with what I was saying. I was referring to the procurement process, which I (and a lot of people in industry) think was unbalanced and too strongly influenced by political considerations. When the AZ deal was announced, I know a few key people in industry who wondered aloud why AZ was chosen, because they aren't even a vaccine company.

I think the NHS effort to manage Covid patients and administer vaccines has been fantastic.

Which points did I make that were spurious, and why? Or have you just moved to general vague criticisms now?
 
Ethan said:
You were the one who raised the EU, pal. Nothing to do with what I was saying. I was referring to the procurement process, which I (and a lot of people in industry) think was unbalanced and too strongly influenced by political considerations. When the AZ deal was announced, I know a few key people in industry who wondered aloud why AZ was chosen, because they aren't even a vaccine company.

I think the NHS effort to manage Covid patients and administer vaccines has been fantastic.

Which points did I make that were spurious, and why? Or have you just moved to general vague criticisms now?
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The first reference in this conversation to the EU came in post #7452 from yourself, pal!
 
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Me and Missis T have had our Oxford vaccines tonight, I was very impressed with the set up. Missis T knew one of the nurses. She did her training with her back in 1980. Anyway the nurse said quite a few folk have turned down the Oxford vaccine wanting the Pfizer one.
I spoke to a good pal in Italy earlier today. She is 70, I mentioned we are having our vaccines today. She said she has registered with her local chemist that she wants the vaccine but the chemist does not have a clue when they will some vaccines in. She was not impressed at all.
 
MetalMickie said:
The first reference in this conversation to the EU came i post #7452 from yourself, pal!
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You need to get a grip. 10,000 posts ago. That is some sort of obsessive disorder.

The recent conversation about UK procurement policy had nothing to do with the EU. You drew an unnecessary snide comparison intended to provoke a response.

But if you want to do this, cool. Lets do it.

The score for this pandemic is not measured in vaccinations. It is measured in bodies, and the UK is still well behind European countries of a similar size. The UK had the advantage of seeing this play out in other countries, particularly Italy and Spain, and therefore should have done much better by being able to respond faster. It didn't, it did worse. The way the pandemic was handled was horrible. The herd immunity debate is just one example of this. Test and trace has been abysmal and lockdowns have been delayed and weak. The lack of proper immigration controls at the time when they really mattered allowed far too much virus into the country.

The vaccine procurement policy was not driven by public health principles, but by venture capital deal-making. It was unbalanced and took too many risks.

The efforts of NHS staff to deliver vaccines have nothing to do with the JCVI, but have to do with the efforts of local NHS bodies and volunteers. But they have been affected by supply problems, and the story isn't over.

If you have any arguments of substance to make, go ahead.
 
Ethan said:
You need to get a grip. 10,000 posts ago. That is some sort of obsessive disorder.

The recent conversation about UK procurement policy had nothing to do with the EU. You drew an unnecessary snide comparison intended to provoke a response.

But if you want to do this, cool. Lets do it.

The score for this pandemic is not measured in vaccinations. It is measured in bodies, and the UK is still well behind European countries of a similar size. The UK had the advantage of seeing this play out in other countries, particularly Italy and Spain, and therefore should have done much better by being able to respond faster. It didn't, it did worse. The way the pandemic was handled was horrible. The herd immunity debate is just one example of this. Test and trace has been abysmal and lockdowns have been delayed and weak. The lack of proper immigration controls at the time when they really mattered allowed far too much virus into the country.

The vaccine procurement policy was not driven by public health principles, but by venture capital deal-making. It was unbalanced and took too many risks.

The efforts of NHS staff to deliver vaccines have nothing to do with the JCVI, but have to do with the efforts of local NHS bodies and volunteers. But they have been affected by supply problems, and the story isn't over.

If you have any arguments of substance to make, go ahead.
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Typo should have read #17452 as you well know.

And as for snide remarks I would have to take lessons from the most arrogant member of the forum, whoever that may be, pal.

As for the Government's handling of the pandemic I would never argue that considerable mistakes were made with regard to border control and the initial thoughts on herd immunity.

However, unlike yourself I believe that if they are to be held responsible for the failures then they should also be given credit for successes.
 
Imurg said:
Well, the jab must be working coz I'm starting to feel like death warmed up...
Sounds like a couple of paracetamol and an earlier night than normal.....:sick::sleep::poop:
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Had my jab last Saturday, and this is the first day I haven’t felt rubbish.:(

My daughter had hers yesterday, but Mrs H is still waiting for doctors to confirm because of an allergy she can safely have a jab. She was told she could not have AZ jab when she turned up for that one, but Pfizer would be ok. Turns up for Pfizer one and change of mind and she can’t have that one now. Worrying.
 
MetalMickie said:
Typo should have read #17452 as you well know.

And as for snide remarks I would have to take lessons from the most arrogant member of the forum, whoever that may be, pal.

As for the Government's handling of the pandemic I would never argue that considerable mistakes were made with regard to border control and the initial thoughts on herd immunity.

However, unlike yourself I believe that if they are to be held responsible for the failures then they should also be given credit for successes.
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personally I think the government have had just two successes.

1, vaccines. Of which they did not develop,

2, furlough, of which the tax payer will pay for.

Anything else is political. So am out.
 
Tashyboy said:
personally I think the government have had just two successes.

1, vaccines. Of which they did not develop,

2, furlough, of which the tax payer will pay for.

Anything else is political. So am out.
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I never claimed that there was a long list of successes!?
 
Ethan said:
It remains to be seen if the UK got it right, because the ongoing supply for the remaining first vax and the load of second vax is not secured, but even if it all works out, in my opinion the UK strategy placed an unnecessary over-dependence on the Oxford/AZ vaccine, which was risky. I find it difficult to imagine that a Merck/Oxford deal, or a greater emphasis on Pfizer would not have provided smoother supplies to both the UK and the EU. The EU has been massively let down by AZ whose delivery failures to them have been disastrous.

A national vaccination strategy to prevent tens of thousands of deaths is not a situation where it is OK to take unnecessary risks and then say 'Its OK, it worked out after all'.

But rather than troll, let us know your analysis of the situation.
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Blimey, Ethan - you give us many an insight into the technicalities and medical knowledge on Covid etc, which we appreciate, but you really need to allow others to express a view contrary to your own without almost always adding a belittling sentence as an admonition for daring to disagree.
No way is Metalmickie being a troll.
 
I live in Dorset, my parents, both have their 80th birthday this year, live in Yorkshire. I usually visit a few times a year but have not been up to see them since December 2019. Covid sucks.
 
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Ethan said:
You may have experience in complex multi-national supply chains, but if you read above you will see that is not the issue. The issue is identifying the vaccine development programmes most likely to succeed and the companies most likely to deliver them. Have you a lot of experience of those too?

The people who do that in big pharma companies use reliable and experienced manufacturers. That is how you avoid supply chain vulnerability.

The vaccination programme is excellent, but that is due to the efforts of the NHS.
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I'm sorry to dare to challenge and rock your v.high horse- ìt will not happen again:eek:

We might get back to the less political (NB. lower case 'p') thread title?
 
Tashyboy said:
personally I think the government have had just two successes.

1, vaccines. Of which they did not develop,

2, furlough, of which the tax payer will pay for.

Anything else is political. So am out.
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Do you expect MPs to be developing vaccines, honestly!

Who do expect to pay for welfare benefits, tax is the only revinue available.
 
drdel said:
I'm sorry to dare to challenge and rock your v.high horse- ìt will not happen again:eek:

We might get back to the less political (NB. lower case 'p') thread title?
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That is a wimp out. If you think what you were saying is correct, say so and tell me why. Instead you swan in, make it personal by telling me that what I am saying is just opinion, suggest you know more about complex supply chains, yet when I respond that this is not about supply chains, and suggest that backing reliable producers( who have already established supply chains) is wise, you fail to respond and instead dodge the issue. Is it political to discuss whether this is about supply chains and which companies have them and which ned to establish them? Don't be silly.
 
Swinglowandslow said:
Blimey, Ethan - you give us many an insight into the technicalities and medical knowledge on Covid etc, which we appreciate, but you really need to allow others to express a view contrary to your own without almost always adding a belittling sentence as an admonition for daring to disagree.
No way is Metalmickie being a troll.
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Raising a false and irrelevant, but knowingly divisive, issue while not adding anything to the discussion is trolling.
 
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