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Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?

Ethan said:
"If the author's account is remotely accurate" is the critical phrase here. If you were considering the distinction between reasonable suspicion and assumption (although they do not sit on the same spectrum, really), then you would consider the writer's track record of accurate, reasonable and balanced writing. Having done so in this case, you might then safely disregard much of what she says.

She says he was a bit chesty. That is a very broad terms which covers a range of different and changeable features. Her doctor may have elicited more detail and appropriate features. She also doesn't mention whether Covid was widespread in the facility.

This person did not have a positive Covid test, so will not be included in the count of people who died within 28 days of a positive test, because they key dependent element is missing, the positive test. I do hope you apply other logical rules better in your lifetime of drawing the distinction between suspicion and assumption, perhaps ensuring that you understand the charge or suspected crime before charging in. However, it is not unreasonable to assume that someone with age and chest vulnerabilities in a place with a transmissible disease circulating may have caught it.

Please feel free to amend your outrage accordingly.
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You talk an enormous amount of sense on this subject, Ethan. What a crying shame that you are patently incapable of doing so without patronising anyone who utters a word you disagree with.

I’m 54 years of age. Kindly don’t talk down to me as though I’m a toddler.
 
A good pal of mine in the RBL had a stroke a month or so ago. He is now out of hospital. Before he was discharged he had a negative Covid test. The day after he got home he got a phone call to say the guy in the bed at the side of him tested positive. Two days later he was positive. His wife who had worse symptoms of Covid tested negative. A good pal of mine was on Oxygen March/April 2020. He has 3 tests all negative. He asked the dr was it Pnumonia. Dr said “ I don’t care what tithe Covid tests say” you have had Covid.
What am trying to say is that we are still living and learning from this savage Virus. Sometimes we get it wrong and we learn from it, sometimes we get it right. But it’s not a national outrage for me, far from it.
 
Billysboots said:
You talk an enormous amount of sense on this subject, Ethan. What a crying shame that you are patently incapable of doing so without patronising anyone who utters a word you disagree with.

I’m 54 years of age. Kindly don’t talk down to me as though I’m a toddler.
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Well, good for you, but if you want to have an adult conversation, apply some cortical thinking and don't throw your toys out afterwards.

You went off on a rant of "outrage" about the data on people who die after a positive test whilst also ranting about this man who tested negative, without seemingly spotting the obvious flaw in your argument. And it was in a piece in the Daily Outrage and written by a Covid skeptic. I think you should apply your years of life experience to connecting the two assertions. You also, in passing, tell off the GP for failing to properly evaluate the likely cause of death, saying his stated cause was an "assumption" without knowing what that was based on, or indeed what is acceptable on a death certificate.

I didn't talk down to you like a toddler, some of my words had too many syllables for that, but you jumped to judgement like a toddler offered a biscuit before his dinner, so I think you may subconsciously recognise it in yourself.
 
David had his vaccine yesterday and a sleepless night as he felt feverish and generally rubbish. I wonder if, having had the virus in November, he's reacted as if it was his 2nd jab which seems to invoke more reaction? Anyhow, I keep telling him it's a good thing as his immune system is clearly working fast and hard!
 
AmandaJR said:
David had his vaccine yesterday and a sleepless night as he felt feverish and generally rubbish. I wonder if, having had the virus in November, he's reacted as if it was his 2nd jab which seems to invoke more reaction? Anyhow, I keep telling him it's a good thing as his immune system is clearly working fast and hard!
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Yes, that is well noted. The 2nd vacc seems to induce a stronger response, not surprising as your immune system is already hyped up and ready for action, so the same thing may well happen with the natural infection then vacc. France have decided to only offer one vacc to people with proven prior Covid infection. There probably isn't much to be gained from a booster vacc although it is quite complicated to set the system up to identify those people.
 
Ethan said:
Yes, that is well noted. The 2nd vacc seems to induce a stronger response, not surprising as your immune system is already hyped up and ready for action, so the same thing may well happen with the natural infection then vacc. France have decided to only offer one vacc to people with proven prior Covid infection. There probably isn't much to be gained from a booster vacc although it is quite complicated to set the system up to identify those people.
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Thanks Ethan. I'll have the spare room prepared for when he has his second dose!
 
Billysboots said:
So the GP who saw this man on the day he died saying that the only symptom the 99 year old COPD sufferer was exhibiting was that he was a little chesty doesn’t ring any alarm bells with you?

As someone who has spent a lifetime drawing the professional distinction between reasonable suspicion and assumption, if the author’s account is remotely accurate then I have a huge issue with the doctor recording this as a Covid death based on an assumption. That assumption itself seems to be that, because others in the establishment had Covid, then it must follow this 99 year old COPD sufferer who was a little chesty must have died from it.

The figures we are quoted daily on the news always come with the caveat “died within 28 days of a positive Covid test”, and yet here we have a clear example of someone who doubtless features in the death toll who has never returned a positive test. His death was registered as a Covid death based on nothing more than an assumption. Whilst this may well be acceptable within medical circles, we are told that we have now seen nearly 120,000 deaths in the U.K. where the deceased had tested positive for the disease within 28 days of their death.

Quite clearly we are not being told the truth. You might not think that’s an outrage, but I most certainly do.
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Billy, hang on, there is another way of looking at this. As I see it....

The writer has made one exaggeration at least. As I understand it,where she says that two Drs were needed for a death certificate, but now because of Covid only one is.
Two Drs were only needed if it were a cremation. One was sufficient for a burial. That has been the case for years, hasn't it?
The writer reports that Covid was present on her dads floor among staff and patients, and within days he gets chesty. He dies and , agreed no proof, but the GP surely has reasonable suspicion that Covid caused his deterioration.

She agrees that his death is not included in the statistics of " death within 28 days of being tested positive "
Is this not the criterion for the death figures as given in the daily update we see on tv?
And therefore his death will not be part of those figures.

Now, as to why we have the way the death figures are compiled and reported.
I imagine that when deciding this, the authorities knew that if the figures were only those "known and proved" to have died from Covid, as opposed to another cause, then their political and Press opponents would be accusing them of playing down the figures to hide their"incompetence"
E.g. Mrs Bloggs had Covid, which probably killed her, but you say she had a heart attack. She probably wouldn't have had a heart attack( if indeed she did ) if she hadn't had Covid.etc etc.

So I imagine that any whiff of Covid being involved had to mean an inclusion in the figures of some kind,

In this case, do you really think that there was no way that Covid played a part in his death? No reasonable suspicion at all.?

This government has taken quite a lot of flack for having such high figures of Covid deaths compared with other Countries. Not something any government would want , IMO.
But I think they are erring on the principle of ." Justice must not only be done, but be seen to be done "
 
Swinglowandslow said:
Billy, hang on, there is another way of looking at this. As I see it....

The writer has made one exaggeration at least. As I understand it,where she says that two Drs were needed for a death certificate, but now because of Covid only one is.
Two Drs were only needed if it were a cremation. One was sufficient for a burial. That has been the case for years, hasn't it?
The writer reports that Covid was present on her dads floor among staff and patients, and within days he gets chesty. He dies and , agreed no proof, but the GP surely has reasonable suspicion that Covid caused his deterioration.

She agrees that his death is not included in the statistics of " death within 28 days of being tested positive "
Is this not the criterion for the death figures as given in the daily update we see on tv?
And therefore his death will not be part of those figures.

Now, as to why we have the way the death figures are compiled and reported.
I imagine that when deciding this, the authorities knew that if the figures were only those "known and proved" to have died from Covid, as opposed to another cause, then their political and Press opponents would be accusing them of playing down the figures to hide their"incompetence"
E.g. Mrs Bloggs had Covid, which probably killed her, but you say she had a heart attack. She probably wouldn't have had a heart attack( if indeed she did ) if she hadn't had Covid.etc etc.

So I imagine that any whiff of Covid being involved had to mean an inclusion in the figures of some kind,

In this case, do you really think that there was no way that Covid played a part in his death? No reasonable suspicion at all.?

This government has taken quite a lot of flack for having such high figures of Covid deaths compared with other Countries. Not something any government would want , IMO.
But I think they are erring on the principle of ." Justice must not only be done, but be seen to be done "
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You are correct. One doctor certifies death. The second doctor signing the crem form is not actually certifying death as such, and does not have to have ever seen the body.

The death certificate has several layers of causation and in the example you give, could say 1.a. Covid-19, 1.b. Coronary artery disease, 1.c. Diabetes Mellitus, for example.
 
Ethan said:
Well, good for you, but if you want to have an adult conversation, apply some cortical thinking and don't throw your toys out afterwards.

You went off on a rant of "outrage" about the data on people who die after a positive test whilst also ranting about this man who tested negative, without seemingly spotting the obvious flaw in your argument. And it was in a piece in the Daily Outrage and written by a Covid skeptic. I think you should apply your years of life experience to connecting the two assertions. You also, in passing, tell off the GP for failing to properly evaluate the likely cause of death, saying his stated cause was an "assumption" without knowing what that was based on, or indeed what is acceptable on a death certificate.

I didn't talk down to you like a toddler, some of my words had too many syllables for that, but you jumped to judgement like a toddler offered a biscuit before his dinner, so I think you may subconsciously recognise it in yourself.
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A rant? Really? I made an observation. An observation that the over recording of Covid deaths, if it is happening, is outrageous. I’m perfectly entitled to make that observation without you responding as though I am a three year old imbecile.

And here’s another observation I am perfectly entitled to make. You are clearly a very intelligent individual, who has been a source of sound, well evidenced information throughout this pandemic. Information which many here, myself included, have clearly found reassuring. But the way you debate issues, especially with those who offer a view you disagree with, is little short of insulting.

You’ll doubtless sit there having a good chuckle at this response, congratulating yourself on reeling in yet another online victim. Well, tiny things please tiny minds. Grow up, discuss issues adult to adult rather than parent to child, and I’m sure a lot more here would have far more respect for you, rather than dismissing you as an opinionated, blustering loudmouth.
 
Billysboots said:
A rant? Really? I made an observation. An observation that the over recording of Covid deaths, if it is happening, is outrageous. I’m perfectly entitled to make that observation without you responding as though I am a three year old imbecile.

And here’s another observation I am perfectly entitled to make. You are clearly a very intelligent individual, who has been a source of sound, well evidenced information throughout this pandemic. Information which many here, myself included, have clearly found reassuring. But the way you debate issues, especially with those who offer a view you disagree with, is little short of insulting.

You’ll doubtless sit there having a good chuckle at this response, congratulating yourself on reeling in yet another online victim. Well, tiny things please tiny minds. Grow up, discuss issues adult to adult rather than parent to child, and I’m sure a lot more here would have far more respect for you, rather than dismissing you as an opinionated, blustering loudmouth.
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You keep referring to yourself with insulting terms I never used. Seems like you are doing all the insulting yourself.

You did not just make an observation. You cited a crappy opinion piece to support the idea that people are being wrongly classified as having Covid, and that doctors appear to apply little thought to certification. You are wrong on both of those, and the article, as biased and uninformed as it is, supports neither assertion. Firstly, I take exception to my colleagues in the medical profession being criticised by people who do not understand the issues, and secondly the subtext is part of a Covid denier message, which is objectionable in its own right.

I am really sorry that you are unable to critically evaluate a story written in an unreliable piece of Andrex like The Daily Wail. Don't turn the anger of realising your mistakes on me. Learn something from it.

I could give exactly no tosses whatsoever what you think of me. You don't know me, and from the available evidence, don't know much.
 
Billysboots said:
I’m not a fan on the Daily Mail, far from it. But a friend sent me the link below and, if this sort of behaviour is replicated elsewhere, which it doubtless is, then it’s a national outrage.


https://mol.im/a/9279767
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If the suggestion is that doctors/politicians are falsely inflating the number of deaths to scare people, would you rather they hide the number of covid deaths to make it seem less serious?
 
Billysboots said:
I’m not a fan on the Daily Mail, far from it. But a friend sent me the link below and, if this sort of behaviour is replicated elsewhere, which it doubtless is, then it’s a national outrage.


https://mol.im/a/9279767
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To summarise from the report
Elderly man in a care home facility gets an acute respiratory infection and dies at a time when covid was known to be active in that home, a test was refused(not unreasonable if he felt it uncomfortable) At a time when there are from surveillance studies very few other repiratory viruses prevalent in the community GP surmises that the most likely cause of death was covid.
He's probably right but without a post mortem we can't be certain and there will inevitably be a few misdiagnoses in both directions ,not sure that it's a national outrage.
 
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