Brexit - The negotiations.

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Someone pointed out if the WA deal was now a bad deal perhaps all those 348 Conservative 'traitors' who voted for it in December in the Commons should now be sacked including the hapless PM? This was Johnson's deal, not May's, he won a GE on it and then got it through commons with his new MPs by selling it as brilliant and oven-ready, despite it being little different to May's thrice rejected deal.
The 10 Tories voting against the bill now must therefore be 'enlightened' heroes. :unsure:

Sweet Little Lies -
Video shows how the PM sold his 'brilliant deal' to the electorate - Johnson's words, clearly knew it wasn't a great deal but lied to the country for personal gain in the ploy of changing the detail later, this was around the time he also lied to the Queen. He is a sham. There are plenty decent Tory MPs - how on earth did they pick this fraud of a man for PM, he is a disaster.(n)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1302956004154445826
 
maxfli65 said:
Someone pointed out if the WA deal was now a bad deal perhaps all those 348 Conservative 'traitors' who voted for it in December in the Commons should now be sacked including the hapless PM? This was Johnson's deal, not May's, he won a GE on it and then got it through commons with his new MPs by selling it as brilliant and oven-ready, despite it being little different to May's thrice rejected deal.
The 10 Tories voting against the bill now must therefore be 'enlightened' heroes. :unsure:

Sweet Little Lies -
Video shows how the PM sold his 'brilliant deal' to the electorate - Johnson's words, clearly knew it wasn't a great deal but lied to the country for personal gain in the ploy of changing the detail later, this was around the time he also lied to the Queen. He is a sham. There are plenty decent Tory MPs - how on earth did they pick this fraud of a man for PM, he is a disaster.(n)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1302956004154445826
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That is the ultimate in irony being called out for telling lies by Alistair Campbell.

He and his equally odious little friend Tony Bliar turned it into an artform.
 
MetalMickie said:
That is the ultimate in irony being called out for telling lies by Alistair Campbell.

He and his equally odious little friend Tony Bliar turned it into an artform.
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Well, that's politics.

But which of the things Campbell said are untrue? Johnson is now raging against a deal he promoted and rushed through Parliament specifically avoiding scrutiny. That is irony. He either failed to understand it, or had no intention of ever following it. Neither is a great look for a PM.
 
Ethan said:
Well, that's politics.

But which of the things Campbell said are untrue? Johnson is now raging against a deal he promoted and rushed through Parliament specifically avoiding scrutiny. That is irony. He either failed to understand it, or had no intention of ever following it. Neither is a great look for a PM.
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Is it not possible to find it ironic without being seen as defending Johnson?

Personally I see no significant difference between Blair and Campbell and Johnson and Cummings. All seem more than capable of telling whatever lies are necessary for their own political and personal gain.
 
Ethan said:
Well, that's politics.

But which of the things Campbell said are untrue?....
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Virtually everything related to Iraq's WMDs. Maybe not 'said', but certainly 'written'. And he and Blair have, imo, got the blood of a genuine and hard-working (but out of his depth when confronted by the 'government discrediting machine) scientist and public servant!
 
Hacker Khan said:
The stuff about Cummings and his tech obsession is very interesting. I read and posted a very fascinating article ages ago about this and how he is thrall to how big tech companies operate and how he thinks the UK should become a world leader in this area and how he feels governments and layers of rules generally slows this down.

I do actually agree with him in a lot of what he was saying, and it is fascinating that he seems not to give a jot about fisheries and blue passports and Bulgarians getting our jobs and all the stuff the typical Brexiter gets worked up about. To him it's all about making the UK into a tech leading nation. And you do wonder how much of the population would actually benefit from a tech heavy economy where automation replaces a lot of traditional jobs. Be careful what you wish for.....
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i would gladly be part of that.. however, it does not happen overnight and by destroying other sectors. Not everyone will get a job or survive in the tech world. we still need the other sectors.
Rather than just raiding the civil service and tearing up treaties, It will require investments in schools (currently underfunded) and teaching. Kids need STEAM education (underfunded), Tech cos need easy access to talent (means letting in immigrants), capital, favourable taxes. I struggle to recollect when was the last time a UK Govt of any colour has successfully delivered an IT project.

Also what happens to the old and those who cannot adapt to the STEAM curriculum? We could ship them to Spain or somewhere warmer perhaps.
 
Foxholer said:
Virtually everything related to Iraq's WMDs. Maybe not 'said', but certainly 'written'. And he and Blair have, imo, got the blood of a genuine and hard-working (but out of his depth when confronted by the 'government discrediting machine) scientist and public servant!
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But what did Campbell say ABOUT JOHNSON that is untrue?.

You win the Whatabouttery contest, but what about the current politics one?

MetalMickie said:
Is it not possible to find it ironic without being seen as defending Johnson?

Personally I see no significant difference between Blair and Campbell and Johnson and Cummings. All seem more than capable of telling whatever lies are necessary for their own political and personal gain.
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There is one huge difference - 15 years. Now is now and then was then. One pair is a massive threat right now and the other pair is history. And homogenising criticisms into one soup of 'politicians lie' is always to make a massive moral equivalence and let the really bad ones off the hook.

In my opinion, Campbell was an old-fashioned 'Thick Of It' style spin doctor, but Cummings is on a whole new level with the data manipulation, dark money and desire to tear everything apart and reform it in his image. Blair was a skilled politician whether you agree with some or all of his policies or not. I liked him to begin with, but then went off him. With the passage of time, though, as the standards of political behaviour have plummeted, I think he should be rehabilitated. George W Bush, too, funnily enough.

Johnson is not a skilled politician, barely a politician at all, and has at best a tenuous idea of what he wants to do other than reward his patrons. He is very well connected, though, seems to have no moral compunction and is willing to sell his granny if it suits his agenda.
 
I am surprised that people are surprised that BoJo lies... it is as if someone just heard that Trump was lying and that he called veterans as losers... Why is this a suprise.

If you listen to the Campbell video with your eyes closed, you could replace BoJo with Trump and it would mean the same things... 'we have a TREMENDOUS deal for our country'
 
Ethan said:
But what did Campbell say ABOUT JOHNSON that is untrue?.

You win the Whatabouttery contest, but what about the current politics one?



There is one huge difference - 15 years. Now is now and then was then. One pair is a massive threat right now and the other pair is history. And homogenising criticisms into one soup of 'politicians lie' is always to make a massive moral equivalence and let the really bad ones off the hook.

In my opinion, Campbell was an old-fashioned 'Thick Of It' style spin doctor, but Cummings is on a whole new level with the data manipulation, dark money and desire to tear everything apart and reform it in his image. Blair was a skilled politician whether you agree with some or all of his policies or not. I liked him to begin with, but then went off him. With the passage of time, though, as the standards of political behaviour have plummeted, I think he should be rehabilitated. George W Bush, too, funnily enough.

Johnson is not a skilled politician, barely a politician at all, and has at best a tenuous idea of what he wants to do other than reward his patrons. He is very well connected, though, seems to have no moral compunction and is willing to sell his granny if it suits his agenda.
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How many times?

I am not defending Johnson who, particularly on Europe, has shown himself to be devious and double dealing in going from being totally pro to full on Eurosceptic for political gain.

However hell would have to freeze over before I could again take a positive view of Bliar and Campbell.

Leading us into a war based upon lies; I can think of nothing lower.
 
Ethan said:
But what did Campbell say ABOUT JOHNSON that is untrue?.

You win the Whatabouttery contest, but what about the current politics one?
...
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Ah! A somewhat tighter definition than what my reply was to.
It's quite possible that BoJo DID have an 'oven ready' deal - and that was the first 'offer' provided in the negotiations (Canadian style FTA and continuation of participation in all existing joint forums. But that would have been 'unacceptable' to EU negotiators, as it wouldn't provide sufficient disincentive to prevent other members going through the same/similar process!
 
Foxholer said:
Ah! A somewhat tighter definition than what my reply was to.
It's quite possible that BoJo DID have an 'oven ready' deal - and that was the first 'offer' provided in the negotiations (Canadian style FTA and continuation of participation in all existing joint forums. But that would have been 'unacceptable' to EU negotiators, as it wouldn't provide sufficient disincentive to prevent other members going through the same/similar process!
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But the deal he proclaimed as over ready and a great deal for the UK suddenly changed into a terrible deal which requires a breach of international law to remedy, even though nothing changed in it. He must be wrong about at least one of those positions, if not both.
 
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