Atheism and Theism

[Don Barzini]

Have been debating with myself for a while on whether to post this or not. Decided to throw caution to the wind and go for it!

So for the last year or so I've disappeared down a bit of a YouTube/internet rabbit-hole in an attempt to decide where I really stand on religion. Previously, I dodged thinking or talking about it too much and if asked about my beliefs I would always give the answer "I don't know". I think I was a bit afraid of putting my hat well and truly inside one ring or the other. But I decided to challenge myself and began watching debates and discussions between atheists and theists. I went into this with a truly open mind, ready to be swayed either way.

My personal conclusions after all of this - there is absolutely no good reason to believe in a god, especially the Christian version. The god of the bible is an evil character and exhibits a lower level of morality than most people. The phrase "Jesus Loves You" is a veiled threat when you dig down into what it really means.

I would now describe myself as an atheist.

I don't know if there would be much interest in a thread to have a discussion about these issues? I have kept this fairly brief so far because perhaps no-one will be interested in discussing it. I do have plenty more to say and would be happy to clarify my reasons for my beliefs, or lack of them. But perhaps it's not allowed under the rules here - I know it's a contentious issue and might present hard work for the mods. I couldn't see any rules specifically disallowing religious debate, but may have missed it, so apologies if this is the case.

Anyway, if it's allowed I'd be interested to hear from others about what you do or don't believe and why!

Cheers

 

[Neilds]

Some good bits in religion, some bad bits. Some people embrace religion in a good way, giving them comfort, etc, some embrace it in a bad way, picking fault with other religions.
Your view is on the more fanatical side of this argument, using terms like evil and threats. if you don't believe fine, but don't be offensive to those that do.
I am more in the don't really care bracket.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It’s simple for me


Have no issues with people having faith

But religion imo is the biggest causes of conflict and deaths through the history of mankind and most of it based on a fairytale of various books

 

[Don Barzini]

Your view is on the more fanatical side of this argument, using terms like evil and threats. if you don't believe fine, but don't be offensive to those that do.

Do you really think that what I've said is fanatical? This surprises me. They are simply observations of mine which I've come to after scratching a short way beneath the outer surface. I could easily give you many examples of the god of the bible acting in an evil way. I could equally easily explain why I feel like Jesus Loves You is actually a threat. Are they really fanatical viewpoints?!

 

[RichA]

I used to describe myself as an atheist but I no longer care.
I've heard more zealotry from some atheists than from some evangelical believers of various faiths. It's almost like a belief system of its own and I don't want any, while trying trying to be tolerant of anyone who has one of any stripe.

 

[Neilds]

Do you really think that what I've said is fanatical? This surprises me. They are simply observations of mine which I've come to after scratching a short way beneath the outer surface. I could easily give you many examples of the god of the bible acting in an evil way. I could equally easily explain why I feel like Jesus Loves You is actually a threat. Are they really fanatical viewpoints?!

I do think your views are a bit on the extreme side - terms like evil are very pointed. And the fact you feel you need to tell us all about your new found non belief is also a bit worrying.

 

[Voyager EMH]

In the great library of human knowledge, religion is in the fiction section.
Great works of the imagination. Some of it to be admired. Some very low-brow stuff.
But all worthy of criticism.

But I can't see how it is not allowed to imagine any garbage and call it religion. And then claim a right to own it and defend it as "sacred".
Who makes the rules on what is and is not allowed to be religion?

I recognise the Christian culture in which I have lived. I also recognise the pre-Christian culture of Britain and Ireland.
But the doctrine of Christianity is fiction to me. That does not mean I dismiss all of its morality, views and instruction. Many tales and stories contain such comments.
Christianity is the one I have been exposed to the most. But my views on others are similar.

I will accept the label "atheist" if that helps others categorise me. I feel no need for such a label.

 

[Crow]

I was brought up as a Christian and believed in one god.

But one day I thought, what if I'd been brought up as a Sikh, or a Buddhist, or a Hindu, etc? Would I then believe in a different god or gods.

Which god or gods was/were the true god/gods?

If it purely came down to how I (and most others I suspect) had been brought up, was there even a true god/gods?

Since then I've been an atheist. I now see religion as a development of a means (and an extremely effective means) of imposing rules and laws at a time when the rule of law as we know it now did not exist.

This enabled society to exist relatively peacefully, as long as different religions didn't cross paths.

Where that leaves the world today is an even greater debate.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Personally, I have no truck with religion. It is the cause of many if not most, conflicts through hostory. My MIL also being of the happy clappy club also drives me even further away from anything like it.
I don't think you need to have a religous faith, I just think ma ny do because of the fear of death.
I live my life "treat others as you like to be treated".
Sometimes I manage to keep the ideal, sometimes I don't. What I do know is that life is just 1 innings, and after that theres nothing just a permanent sleep until the World destroys itself and the bugs take over.

 

[Orikoru]

Have been debating with myself for a while on whether to post this or not. Decided to throw caution to the wind and go for it!

So for the last year or so I've disappeared down a bit of a YouTube/internet rabbit-hole in an attempt to decide where I really stand on religion. Previously, I dodged thinking or talking about it too much and if asked about my beliefs I would always give the answer "I don't know". I think I was a bit afraid of putting my hat well and truly inside one ring or the other. But I decided to challenge myself and began watching debates and discussions between atheists and theists. I went into this with a truly open mind, ready to be swayed either way.

My personal conclusions after all of this - there is absolutely no good reason to believe in a god, especially the Christian version. The god of the bible is an evil character and exhibits a lower level of morality than most people. The phrase "Jesus Loves You" is a veiled threat when you dig down into what it really means.

I would now describe myself as an atheist.

I don't know if there would be much interest in a thread to have a discussion about these issues? I have kept this fairly brief so far because perhaps no-one will be interested in discussing it. I do have plenty more to say and would be happy to clarify my reasons for my beliefs, or lack of them. But perhaps it's not allowed under the rules here - I know it's a contentious issue and might present hard work for the mods. I couldn't see any rules specifically disallowing religious debate, but may have missed it, so apologies if this is the case.

Anyway, if it's allowed I'd be interested to hear from others about what you do or don't believe and why!

Cheers

Unfortunately I find myself leaning towards this. I really wish I did believe in something, as it would make my mental health issues a thousand per cent easier. But my mind is too rational and I can't convince myself of something that doesn't feel plausible. I still don't describe myself as atheist, but really this is just because of that last 1% of doubt in the fact that nobody really knows for sure and there is no explanation for everything that truly satisfies me. But I largely think that religion is born out of fear of the unknown and fear of our mortality. Unfortunately a fear that very much consumes me.

I would never judge others that do believe in it all, or try and belittle them, because I am envious of them. I wouldn't try and take that comfort away from somebody.

 

[Backache]

It’s simple for me


Have no issues with people having faith

But religion imo is the biggest causes of conflict and deaths through the history of mankind and most of it based on a fairytale of various books

I am not religious but I think it's a bit of a myth that religion is the predominant cause of conflict.
It is often invoked to support a cause but so can anything else be.
If religion did not exist I don't think war and conflict would cease or diminish.
Putins aggression is not religious nor was Hitlers WW1 had no religious element to it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I found Mere Christianity by C S Lewis an interesting read.

Also When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold Kushner helped me with some difficult things many Christians struggle with.

Neither book is a long or difficult read.

 

[Neilds]

Also, why do people feel they need labels nowadays?

Apart from to satisfy all the surveys we need to do!

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Despite religion benign a work of fiction, it has been the direct cause of very few wars throughout human history.

 

[Don Barzini]

I do think your views are a bit on the extreme side - terms like evil are very pointed. And the fact you feel you need to tell us all about your new found non belief is also a bit worrying.

OK, I'm not sure why you'd find it worrying. I simply started this thread as I'm interested in other people's views and experiences, that's all. And in doing so, I set out my own position. It feels to me though, that engaging with you further on this subject may result in a conflict, which I don't desire. So I'll leave it there, as far as you personally are concerned. No issue and no drama. Peace.

 

[Don Barzini]

Unfortunately I find myself leaning towards this. I really wish I did believe in something, as it would make my mental health issues a thousand per cent easier. But my mind is too rational and I can't convince myself of something that doesn't feel plausible. I still don't describe myself as atheist, but really this is just because of that last 1% of doubt in the fact that nobody really knows for sure and there is no explanation for everything that truly satisfies me. But I largely think that religion is born out of fear of the unknown and fear of our mortality. Unfortunately a fear that very much consumes me.

I would never judge others that do believe in it all, or try and belittle them, because I am envious of them. I wouldn't try and take that comfort away from somebody.

This is interesting and the terminology that surrounds beliefs or lack of them, was and sometimes still is, a source of confusion to me!

Some terms do get misused, but to put it simply, atheism is simply a position based on belief and not on knowledge. It simply says “I don’t believe in a god”. It does not say “I know there is no god”.

Agnosticism and Gnosticism cover the knowledge aspect of things. An agnostic says “I don’t/can’t know” whereas a gnostic says “I do know” (and therefore has a burden of proof).

To confuse things even more, you can be agnostic or gnostic and also atheist or theist!

So for me, I’m an agnostic atheist. I do not believe in a god, but I don’t KNOW there is no god (because I can’t possibly disprove the claim).

Clear as mud maybe!

 

[Tashyboy]

I remember once being called a hypocrite by a Christian because me and Missis T got married in a church but we never actually went every Sunday. Another guy asked me “ where is God”? I cannot remember my answer but I clearly remember his. “ God is all around”. If that’s the case, why do we need to go to church.
I have been brought up in a Christian world and have travelled the world. I have seen many many religions and respected them all. In the same way I would expect people to respect a Christian society. Unfortunately others of all faiths don’t feel the same way I do.
I respect all faiths even though I do not follow any other religion nor actively practice Christianity, but i do not respect anyone of any faith who believes the murder of others and the 2nd class treatment of women and others is “ because my god says so”.
If people are religious or not, mint crack on. But do I really need to know that someone has tagged themselves in a group that is religious, atheist, Gay, Non binary etc etc.
Just be a good person, and respect others, even if your god says not to. That’s all I ask.

 

[bobmac]

I can spend days/weeks/months quite happy without religion crossing my mind but then someone comes along and spoils my day by telling me I should live my life according to their book.
Believe what you want but don't try and tell me what to believe because your book says so.

 

[CliveW]

As a former kirk elder, I became disillusioned with religion many years ago, more so by the so called "Christians" who were quite happy to cast the first stone when I was divorced. Nowadays the only time I refer to God is on the golf course!

 

[Tashyboy]

As a former kirk elder, I became disillusioned with religion many years ago, more so by the so called "Christians" who were quite happy to cast the first stone when I was divorced. Nowadays the only time I refer to God is on the golf course!

How often is that Clive and does he answer