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Are there any real engineers out there...?

dontfancythisputt said:
CEng qualified Civil Engineer with 20 years experience, took 8 years part time study to get to that level, started working for a design consultant when i left school as a tea boy/ drawing folder!

Find it very degrading to say the least that absolutely anyone can call themselves an engineer.

Call yourself a doctor or teacher if you aren't one and see how far you get!

I think the governing bodies are mostly to blame as very little is done to enforce a standard of knowledge level before a title is awarded

just my 2p.
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The 'technicians' we recruit have to be eligible for enrolement on the Clinical Technologists register, and to do that they need a degree. The aim is for them to become Chartered members of IPEM. We set a minimum requirement of a HNC, and then continue their development down whatever route is best suited to them and the business. Some will do a number of IT/CISCO/SQL server courses, whilst others will do degrees in electronics/computing/business/MBA. Some stay at HNC level, albeit with a multitude of product and soft skill courses added.

londonlewis said:
An outside observer might suggest that you change the practical exam.
If 95% of those that take the exam fail it, you may need to look at how you ask the question in order to make it clear as to what you are looking for people to do.

The practical exam contains far more than wiring a plug. There's electronics/pneumatics/IT elements to it. What we're looking for with the plug test is for them to listen, they're told to read the instructions, and then do it.

FN2 said:
As a Chartered Civil Engineer I couldn't agree more. The role described by the OP is an electrician. Some may find that insulting but no more insulting than calling him an engineer.
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I'd interested to see an electrician with a networked intensive care ventilator in bits. The test equipment alone is worth more the the car they drive around in. The flow rates, volumes and pressures delivered to a baby weighing less than a bag of sugar have to be phenominally accurate, and the delivery system to achieve that isn't a bicycle pump...

I have a HNC in electronics, and a degree in mgt science. I don't consider myself to be an engineer but I do consider many of my staff to be engineers. However, the point of the post was to highlight how many ENGINEERS can't follow instructions and wire a plug - probably beneath them.
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FN2 said:
As a Chartered Civil Engineer I couldn't agree more. The role described by the OP is an electrician. Some may find that insulting but no more insulting than calling him an engineer.
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It would seem even Chartered Civil Engineers may not be able to read properly either - or at least they may jump to conclusions.

The OP did state 'final question'!
 
It's nearly as bad the binary one

There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
 
Hobbit said:
I've been interviewing engineers for about 12 year but the last couple of years have been a little tough. I can get any number of engineers with great qualifications but can they follow instructions or wire a mains plug?

Remember one of the basic bits of advice from school? READ the question!! The final question we pose to, supposedly, qualified/experienced engineers is a practical. Read the instructions then wire the mains plug and calculate what fuse needs to be fitted. Only 1 out of the last 20+ engineers I've interviewed can wire a plug, and less than half read the instructions and strip the other end of the cable to the right lengths for each conductor. As for what fuse... half of them would be dead, or have killed someone.

Only 1 engineer knew that the cut away next to the earth terminal was so that you can put a loop in the earth wire so that it is the last wire to pull free when the cable receives an almighty tug, e.g. someone trips over the cable.

Boolean algebra, De Morgan's theorem, cascade effect or programming a lift to respond logically - no problem, but wiring a plug:(

What on earth(no pun intended) has happened to decent apprenticeships that give engineers the basic skills rather than throwing them in at some fluffy fancy level?
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I am am quite a young engineer (26) and started in the electrical maintenance trade around 2 weeks after finishing my GCSE's and I had the first 6 weeks with no college no class rooms and I was working with an old pit sparky who taught me how to do things correctly in real life situations. Then when I started my OND on day release with some wonderful blue sky thinking college teacher not having a clue about how to do things in a real life situation. The problem is now days the older generation of engineers are reducing in numbers and now its a generation who have learnt everything off instruction books and youtube. When I did my 17th edition wiring regs course the guy teaching it knew nothing about electrics his job was to teach how to pass the test not how to use the regs!
 
Have been working as an electrical engineer since 91.

I now work in a maintenance role it is now quite obvious to me the role has now been made into a paperwork first exercise. This has slowly pushed all the old school engineers out of certain roles.

Some of the old boys I have worked with in the past could do some amazing things and repair plant by manufacturing parts from scrap. I do not see many people able to do this now and in some respects all that matters is that the paper work is complete.

Some of the tasks we complete cost ludicrous amounts of money as the equipment is manufactured to be replaced not repaired, in an age where recycling is being rammed down our throats why is this allowed to happen?

We had an example this week were we replaced a £2.60 relay on a PCB which was quoted at a £1400 replacement item. The relays were soldered and a non standard fit, were these mounted on a relay base and standard we could of plugged in a replacement but we got round it with some old fashioned ingenuity.
 
If i was asked to do a trade test i'd walk out the door its demeaning , you can tell from someones CV if there any good and an interview asking relevant questions.
I've been a sparky since 1990, doing my 4 year apprenticeship then going back to college and Uni doing 2 HNC's electrical and mechanical and an HND,I've worked in power stations all over and now in the oil and gas industry on cnc machines .

as an interviewer would you be able to do the trade test ?
 
Many people can blag in an interview as well as fluff up a CV - a practical test is necessary these days to filter out the real deals.

I had to do one for my job and a satcom job I went for - they are no problems at all.

In some IT jobs there are selection tests - you get put in a room with the other candidates and have to do task they set out - by the end of the day they normally have the right people

Need a lot more than just a CV and an Interview
 
Been doing a few interviews myself, they have an initial filtering system of verbal reasoning, numeracy and psychometric testing. I started to wonder if this was related to the educational standards. I got through all my tests and got to interview but where that goes who knows.
My dad is chartered civil engineer, he told me not to do engineering, said in the uk they don't have a clue what an engineer is and the pay is poor. But being a cloth headed teenager I did not listen. I did try and transfer over in my first term to a Maths degree, 6 hrs a week of lectures seemed okay to me unlike the 37.5 on the engineering course. Now it's a case of just making the best of bad situation.
 
stevek1969 said:
If i was asked to do a trade test i'd walk out the door its demeaning , you can tell from someones CV if there any good and an interview asking relevant questions.
I've been a sparky since 1990, doing my 4 year apprenticeship then going back to college and Uni doing 2 HNC's electrical and mechanical and an HND,I've worked in power stations all over and now in the oil and gas industry on cnc machines .

as an interviewer would you be able to do the trade test ?
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Actually, you can't tell from a CV. Most CV's are either from templates they've cut and pasted from or have been put together by an agency. 10 years ago you could easily filter using their CV's. Relevant questions do reveal an awful lot, and a technical test compliments that.

Could I do the trade test? I'm pretty sure I posted earlier that I'm a poacher turned gamekeeper. And like you, I've continued with my education since my apprenticeship. As crazy as it sounds, at 55, my bedside table includes a number of technical books.

I'm very comfortable with our interview process, and the discriminators therein. But a rhetorical question for you from the interviewer; if you were to walk out because of the questions you were being asked do you think I'd see you as the right material? Technically you may be brilliant but your attitude... Is it demeaning on our part or is it arrogance on yours?
 
harpo_72 said:
My dad is chartered civil engineer, he told me not to do engineering, said in the uk they don't have a clue what an engineer is and the pay is poor.
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Your Dad was right.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to pop the bins out, the refuse engineers are due round in the morning. :whistle:
 
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