Are there any real engineers out there...?

[guest100718]

You'd be handy in an industry that keeps old equipment running as long as possible, e.g. the NHS. Can't see them binning a 15yr old £20k moblie x-ray because the plug has been damaged by the x-ray technician setting off without unplugging it...

Its just an on the job skill you can teach them then. I wouldnt expect a trainee to know about some old Compaq kit I have to hang to due to regulatory reasons, but I can show him what to do if we ever need to use it or something breaks on it. He'll be wondering why I havnt VM'd it.....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Real engineers get confused between Halloween and Christmas Day - Oct31 and Dec25

 

[Foxholer]

You'd be handy in an industry that keeps old equipment running as long as possible, e.g. the NHS. Can't see them binning a 15yr old £20k moblie x-ray because the plug has been damaged by the x-ray technician setting off without unplugging it...

Its just an on the job skill you can teach them then. I wouldnt expect a trainee to know about some old Compaq kit I have to hang to due to regulatory reasons, but I can show him what to do if we ever need to use it or something breaks on it. He'll be wondering why I havnt VM'd it.....

But Hobbit can't afford the time to teach them - therefore can't afford to employ them! He's conducting (another 'pun') a reasonable test to see whether it safe for his company to let its employees loose on customers - unsupervised, but with a Manual for the particular piece of kit! All Hobbit needs to do is check that the Manual provides sufficient info/guidance.

For some reason, Cat Stevens's 'Father and Son' popped into my head reading the thread! As appropriate now at Father's (or his Father's!) age as when I was at Son's!

 

[guest100718]

But Hobbit can't afford the time to teach them - therefore can't afford to employ them! He's conducting (another 'pun') a reasonable test to see whether it safe for his company to let its employees loose on customers - unsupervised, but with a Manual for the particular piece of kit! All Hobbit needs to do is check that the Manual provides sufficient info/guidance.

For some reason, Cat Stevens's 'Father and Son' popped into my head reading the thread! As appropriate now at Father's (or his Father's!) age as when I was at Son's!

So why does wiring a plug matter? Just provide the wiring diragram then.

 

[MadAdey]

So why does wiring a plug matter? Just provide the wiring diragram then.

I think it is just a way of seeing what their skills are like. Just giving them a diagram is not going to tell them how to do it, it will jsut give them a referance for the orientation of the wiring.

So what does wiring a plug tell me about an engineer?

Can they strip a wire?
Can they actually pick up the appropriate tools for the job?
Do they have the common sense to know that the outer sheathing needs to be inside the cable clamp?
Do they know how to check if the fuse they are using is actually serviceable?
Would they know to put a loop on the earth and do they know why they are doing it?
Can they look at something and see what needs doing, without having to spend an hour reading a book to do a 2 minute job?

It may appear to be a simple task in peoples eyes, but doing it correctly is something that a lot of people do not know. A simple thing like a plug can show a lot more in my eyes than some people realise.

 

[MadAdey]

But Hobbit can't afford the time to teach them - therefore can't afford to employ them! He's conducting (another 'pun') a reasonable test to see whether it safe for his company to let its employees loose on customers - unsupervised, but with a Manual for the particular piece of kit! All Hobbit needs to do is check that the Manual provides sufficient info/guidance.

But like all equipment manuals, they expect the person using it to have some kind of engineering know-how as they are not wrote like an idiots guide to servicing equipment.

 

[guest100718]

I think it is just a way of seeing what their skills are like. Just giving them a diagram is not going to tell them how to do it, it will jsut give them a referance for the orientation of the wiring.

So what does wiring a plug tell me about an engineer?

Can they strip a wire?
Can they actually pick up the appropriate tools for the job?
Do they have the common sense to know that the outer sheathing needs to be inside the cable clamp?
Do they know how to check if the fuse they are using is actually serviceable?
Would they know to put a loop on the earth and do they know why they are doing it?
Can they look at something and see what needs doing, without having to spend an hour reading a book to do a 2 minute job?

It may appear to be a simple task in peoples eyes, but doing it correctly is something that a lot of people do not know. A simple thing like a plug can show a lot more in my eyes than some people realise.

I get what you are saying, my point is that everything these days comes with a moulded unservicable plug, you can change the fuse and thats it. So to complain the youth of today cant change a plug is pointless because it's not something that needs to be done anymore. Get them to rejoing a cut cable or some other test that will show the required skill set..

 

[CMAC]

So why does wiring a plug matter? Just provide the wiring diragram then.

I would imagine its not just about the technical understanding but how they approach the task and complete the assignment. There is a psychology aspect to it as well I would hope.



anyone know what type and level of engineer is being interviewed?

 

[CMAC]

Real engineers get confused between Halloween and Christmas Day - Oct31 and Dec25

Nurse!

 

[Hobbit]

I get what you are saying, my point is that everything these days comes with a moulded unservicable plug, you can change the fuse and thats it. So to complain the youth of today cant change a plug is pointless because it's not something that needs to be done anymore. Get them to rejoing a cut cable or some other test that will show the required skill set..

You're not wrong, everything does come with a moulded plug. But an example of where the money can go. An X-ray technician ran over the mains lead with a mobile x-ray and damaged the last couple of feet of a 20' lead. Because it was a mobile x-ray it was on contract. The company were called in but because it was user damage it became a billable job. £660 to replace the full lead, inc the rewind mech because it came as a unit - and that was 18 years ago, God knows what they would charge now. Chop 2' off the cable and put on a new plug for less than a tenner including labour.

I would imagine its not just about the technical understanding but how they approach the task and complete the assignment. There is a psychology aspect to it as well I would hope.



anyone know what type and level of engineer is being interviewed?

What we are looking for is that a) they can follow instructions and, b) they have the basic skills to use the correct tools and do a competent job. Bearing in mind we're looking for a minimum of a HNC and 2 years experience in a medical environment, not an apprentice, you'd be truly amazed(and frightened) at some of the rubbish I've seen. Wrong wires on different terminal, outer sheath not in the cable grip, bare conductors outside of the plug, 40mins to wire a plug wrong.

If I'm sending a field service engineer to a customer's workplace I want him to be competent, professional, efficient & safe. Do you want the engineer thats servicing an intensive care ventilator or anaesthetic machine, both of which are life support equipment, to not have the skill to read and follow instructions? Googling Youtube in front of a customer... lol.

I'm a poacher turned gamekeeper, and can recognise a good engineer and a bad one.

The skill shortage we read about in the papers genuinely exists. And to that end I'm about to start a scheme for trainee engineers that will see them buddy'd up with experienced, senior, engineers that will build on what they learned at college with real engineering skills. Its going to cost a fair bit of money but I believe there are standards that have to be met in the environment they work in that can't be compromised.

 

[G1BB0]

good on you Brian, I do feel that should be standard anyway but in this super cost efficient/cutting environment these days its an expense most companies dont want to be burdened with despite the long term gains.

 

[SocketRocket]

I guess it depends on what the job is. If I went to an interview for a job as a Design Engineer or a Software Development Engineer and someone asked me to wire a plug I would probably say 'Thanks but No Thanks' to the job.

 

[Birchy]

Im currently doing a HNC and the standard of some of the work ive seen on it is shocking :rofl:

What Hobbit says has not surprised me at all.

Ive found the course pretty straight forward so far but maybe my experience has helped. There is people on the course who have never done any job remotely close to the trade and you can tell.

 

[Stuey01]

The term engineer has been watered down so much.

 

[Beezerk]

Im currently doing a HNC and the standard of some of the work ive seen on it is shocking :rofl:

I remember when I did my electrical engineering HNC bridging course, there were people on it who didn't have a clue, complete newbies to anything related to engineering. Not quite sure what they were doing on the course.

 

[dontfancythisputt]

CEng qualified Civil Engineer with 20 years experience, took 8 years part time study to get to that level, started working for a design consultant when i left school as a tea boy/ drawing folder!

Find it very degrading to say the least that absolutely anyone can call themselves an engineer.

Call yourself a doctor or teacher if you aren't one and see how far you get!

I think the governing bodies are mostly to blame as very little is done to enforce a standard of knowledge level before a title is awarded

just my 2p.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Nurse!

Ah CMAC - but you have to explain why the real engineer could be confused between Halloween and Christmas Day

 

[londonlewis]

I've been interviewing engineers for about 12 year but the last couple of years have been a little tough. I can get any number of engineers with great qualifications but can they follow instructions or wire a mains plug?

Remember one of the basic bits of advice from school? READ the question!! The final question we pose to, supposedly, qualified/experienced engineers is a practical. Read the instructions then wire the mains plug and calculate what fuse needs to be fitted. Only 1 out of the last 20+ engineers I've interviewed can wire a plug, and less than half read the instructions and strip the other end of the cable to the right lengths for each conductor. As for what fuse... half of them would be dead, or have killed someone.

Only 1 engineer knew that the cut away next to the earth terminal was so that you can put a loop in the earth wire so that it is the last wire to pull free when the cable receives an almighty tug, e.g. someone trips over the cable.

Boolean algebra, De Morgan's theorem, cascade effect or programming a lift to respond logically - no problem, but wiring a plug

What on earth(no pun intended) has happened to decent apprenticeships that give engineers the basic skills rather than throwing them in at some fluffy fancy level?

An outside observer might suggest that you change the practical exam.
If 95% of those that take the exam fail it, you may need to look at how you ask the question in order to make it clear as to what you are looking for people to do.

A client of mine was looking to hire some junior candidates and asked all suitable applicants to complete a test. Everyone failed it. I asked him if he had ever done it, to which he looked insulted, so I got him to do it and he failed it as well...

 

[FN2]

CEng qualified Civil Engineer with 20 years experience, took 8 years part time study to get to that level, started working for a design consultant when i left school as a tea boy/ drawing folder!

Find it very degrading to say the least that absolutely anyone can call themselves an engineer.

Call yourself a doctor or teacher if you aren't one and see how far you get!

I think the governing bodies are mostly to blame as very little is done to enforce a standard of knowledge level before a title is awarded

just my 2p.

As a Chartered Civil Engineer I couldn't agree more. The role described by the OP is an electrician. Some may find that insulting but no more insulting than calling him an engineer.

 

[Birchy]

CEng qualified Civil Engineer with 20 years experience, took 8 years part time study to get to that level, started working for a design consultant when i left school as a tea boy/ drawing folder!

Find it very degrading to say the least that absolutely anyone can call themselves an engineer.

Call yourself a doctor or teacher if you aren't one and see how far you get!

I think the governing bodies are mostly to blame as very little is done to enforce a standard of knowledge level before a title is awarded

just my 2p.

Well done fella, that's the sort of level I would like to get to in the future. Sounds like you have a similar path to me, im just doing the part time study bit now

P.S I don't class myself as an engineer yet, not a proper one anyway