Applying a rule

[Foxholer]

My thinking, without combing over the rule book to confirm, was that any breach raised by a player in match play always had to be done without undue delay. Therefore, if the breach happened during the play of a hole, they'd have to raise this issue asap. So, unless there was a valid reason they couldn't inform the player before the end of the hole, they could not simply wait until the players completed the hole, and then simply state the breach on the next tee box? If that were true, it would seem the the answer to the OP was most likely a "No".

I've had a brief look through the rules, and I cannot confirm the above is actually (still) true. Is it a case where any claim can simply wait until beginning the next hole? It seems strange, in that a player could potentially make a breach early on in the hole. For example, on a par 5 they may have played their second shot out of the fairway bunker, and the opponent believe they illegally touched the sand. Can the opponent simply wait for the next 10-15 minutes for players to continue taking their shots, and then after losing / halving the hole THEN make the claim there was a rule breach?

See Colin L's post - #7

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I remember having quite a 'discussion' with one player on that very point after using my club to lift the rake.

I in fact use the rake or my club to aid me getting into and out of bunkers under Rule 5 - 3.1 (Modified Rules for players with a disability)

Exactly…and why I raised it as I used to think that I could not touch the sand with a club at all…without incurring a penalty. So wondering if that was the thinking behind the claim made about a player grounding a club in the bunker. Only the OP can answer that.

 

[salfordlad]

My thinking, without combing over the rule book to confirm, was that any breach raised by a player in match play always had to be done without undue delay. Therefore, if the breach happened during the play of a hole, they'd have to raise this issue asap. So, unless there was a valid reason they couldn't inform the player before the end of the hole, they could not simply wait until the players completed the hole, and then simply state the breach on the next tee box? If that were true, it would seem the the answer to the OP was most likely a "No".

I've had a brief look through the rules, and I cannot confirm the above is actually (still) true. Is it a case where any claim can simply wait until beginning the next hole? It seems strange, in that a player could potentially make a breach early on in the hole. For example, on a par 5 they may have played their second shot out of the fairway bunker, and the opponent believe they illegally touched the sand. Can the opponent simply wait for the next 10-15 minutes for players to continue taking their shots, and then after losing / halving the hole THEN make the claim there was a rule breach?

The answer to the bolded question can be yes. See rule 20.1b. The time limit for raising an issue (before the Match Result is final) is before starting the next hole after becoming aware of the facts. So a person can wait. But waiting may make it more difficult to prove the facts of a claim in some cases.

 

[Swango1980]

See Colin L's post - #7

I wasn't sure if there was a difference between making a claim and asking for a ruling? For example, I thought the player still had to allege a breach had been made asap, but if there was uncertainty in the actual ruling, could then state they would request a ruling by Committee before teeing off the next (i.e. say "ok, I know we disagree, but after the match we'll present the situation to Committee and get them to decide").

As others have pointed out, I guess this is not the case and the opponent can wait until any point before starting the next hole.

 

[Foxholer]

I wasn't sure if there was a difference between making a claim and asking for a ruling? For example, I thought the player still had to allege a breach had been made asap, but if there was uncertainty in the actual ruling, could then state they would request a ruling by Committee before teeing off the next (i.e. say "ok, I know we disagree, but after the match we'll present the situation to Committee and get them to decide").

As others have pointed out, I guess this is not the case and the opponent can wait until any point before starting the next hole.

Indeed, that (claim v ruling) occurred to me when I re-read #7.

 

[yandabrown]

The answer to the bolded question can be yes. See rule 20.1b. The time limit for raising an issue (before the Match Result is final) is before starting the next hole after becoming aware of the facts. So a person can wait. But waiting may make it more difficult to prove the facts of a claim in some cases.

What about in the situation where someone asks "How is everybody lying?". If the person that allegedly touched the sand in a penalisable fashion doesn't include it (because they were unaware or didn't believe that they had), then decisions could be made by the team that would have been made differently if the penalty had been declared.

 

[rulie]

Being pedantic here, what is a "team"? And, nobody has said what form of match play is involved.

 

[Colin L]

I wasn't sure if there was a difference between making a claim and asking for a ruling? For example, I thought the player still had to allege a breach had been made asap, but if there was uncertainty in the actual ruling, could then state they would request a ruling by Committee before teeing off the next (i.e. say "ok, I know we disagree, but after the match we'll present the situation to Committee and get them to decide").

As others have pointed out, I guess this is not the case and the opponent can wait until any point before starting the next hole.

Claim is not used in the 2019 Rules. Players are given the right to ask for a ruling. See Rule 20.1b

I like the change as I think it makes it easier, for example in a situation such as has been presented in this thread, for a matter to be raised in a less confrontational manner just as you illustrate.

 

[Colin L]

What about in the situation where someone asks "How is everybody lying?". If the person that allegedly touched the sand in a penalisable fashion doesn't include it (because they were unaware or didn't believe that they had), then decisions could be made by the team that would have been made differently if the penalty had been declared.

I'm not quite sure what your question is. How could a player who was unaware of doing anything that could have incurred a penalty include a penalty in his score?

 

[Swango1980]

Claim is not used in the 2019 Rules. Players are given the right to ask for a ruling. See Rule 20.1b

I like the change as I think it makes it easier, for example in a situation such as has been presented in this thread, for a matter to be raised in a less confrontational manner just as you illustrate.

When I said Claim, I was simply using the human language, rather than any defined word within the rules of golf (pre or post 2019). It was my way of saying that I felt the player had to raise the alleged rules breach asap, or words to that effect.

In terms of the OP, does raising the issue on the next tee really make it less confrontational? I would imagine that if a player was told they breached a rule, they'd at least like to hear about it as soon as it happens. I reckon they'd be even more frustrated if they were allowed to play out the hole, walk to the next thinking they won or halved it, and then be told they hadn't due to a rules breach. A rules breach their opponent was fully aware off, and yet kept it hidden knowing they were going to claim the win regardless of what happened for the remainder of that hole.

 

[yandabrown]

I'm not quite sure what your question is. How could a player who was unaware of doing anything that could have incurred a penalty include a penalty in his score?

Sorry, I was stuggling to make it clear :-( I agree with you, he coudn't, so the is there an obligation on the "accusor" to mention it at that point?

 

[Swango1980]

Sorry, I was stuggling to make it clear :-( I agree with you, he coudn't, so the is there an obligation on the "accusor" to mention it at that point?

I think, but may be wrong, I know what you are saying. If we assume the player in the OP was unaware that they touched the sand, then if the opponent raised it at the time then it would be easier to trust it is a valid claim from the opponent (or words to that effect). If it was made 5 or 10 minutes later on the next tee, after you had won or halved the hole, and then the opponent raises it, the player is likely to completely disagree with this accusation. They may even have a counter argument that the opponent is making a dodgy claim knowing they didn't win the hole, and if it was genuine ask why they did not mention it at the time.

 

[Colin L]

Sorry, I was stuggling to make it clear :-( I agree with you, he coudn't, so the is there an obligation on the "accusor" to mention it at that point?

There was no obligation in terms of there being a requirement in the Rules but I'd struggle to understand if the possible breach wasn't taken up at that point. It just seems so obvious that the opponent would say something like "Hey, wait a moment. Didn't you touch sand with your backswing when you were playing out of that bunker?" But why this player waited until the next tee is the unanswerable question.

 

[yandabrown]

I think, but may be wrong, I know what you are saying. If we assume the player in the OP was unaware that they touched the sand, then if the opponent raised it at the time then it would be easier to trust it is a valid claim from the opponent (or words to that effect). If it was made 5 or 10 minutes later on the next tee, after you had won or halved the hole, and then the opponent raises it, the player is likely to completely disagree with this accusation. They may even have a counter argument that the opponent is making a dodgy claim knowing they didn't win the hole, and if it was genuine ask why they did not mention it at the time.

Maybe if I try and describe the scenario that I am thinking of a little more clearly. 2 Teams, let's call team A the accusors and P the Perpetrators of the sand touching. No shots on this specific imaginary hole:
All arrive on the green.
A1 states he is there in 5
A2 also states he is there in 5
P1 (the actual "Perpetrator") says I'm here in 4
P2 also says I'm here in 4
A1 sinks their putt. This is the one that beleives an offense has occured.
P1 Sinks his put to "win" the hole
A2 and P2 both pick up beleiving that the hole is over.
Get to the next tee and P1 claims the hole, only for A1 to disagree. Had this been pointed out earlier when each stated their beleived count, then P2 would have had a chance to win the hole.

 

[Whereditgo]

Maybe if I try and describe the scenario that I am thinking of a little more clearly. 2 Teams, let's call team A the accusors and P the Perpetrators of the sand touching. No shots on this specific imaginary hole:
All arrive on the green.
A1 states he is there in 5
A2 also states he is there in 5
P1 (the actual "Perpetrator") says I'm here in 4
P2 also says I'm here in 4
A1 sinks their putt. This is the one that beleives an offense has occured.
P1 Sinks his put to "win" the hole
A2 and P2 both pick up beleiving that the hole is over.
Get to the next tee and P1 claims the hole, only for A1 to disagree. Had this been pointed out earlier when each stated their beleived count, then P2 would have had a chance to win the hole.

If the accuser didn't raise his concerns at this point I would be more than a little miffed for him to raise them later!