Applying a rule

[Crazyface]

I heard a story today on a match play situation where on the second tee one team was saying they were one up but got a response from one of the opposition that it was not the case as the player that has won the hole had grounded his club in the bunker. Can you apply a rule after the event?

 

[rulie]

I heard a story today on a match play situation where on the second tee one team was saying they were one up but got a response from one of the opposition that it was not the case as the player that has won the hole had grounded his club in the bunker. Can you apply a rule after the event?

It depends, see below from Rule 20.1b

(2) Ruling Request Made Before Result of Match Is Final.
When a player wants a referee or the Committee to decide how to apply the Rules to his or her own play or the opponent’s play, the player may make a request for a ruling.

If a referee or the Committee is not available in a reasonable time, the player may make the request for a ruling by notifying the opponent that a later ruling will be sought when a referee or the Committee becomes available.

If a player makes a request for a ruling before the result of the match is final:

• A ruling will be given only if the request is made in time, which depends on when the player becomes aware of the facts creating the Rules issue:
  
  • When Player Becomes Aware of the Facts Before Either Player Starts the Final Hole of the Match. When the player becomes aware of the facts, the ruling request must be made before either player makes a stroke to begin another hole.
  • 
    
  • If the player does not make the request in this time, a ruling will not be given by a referee or the Committee and the result of the hole(s) in question will stand even if the Rules were applied in the wrong way.

 

[NearHull]

It depends, see below from Rule 20.1b

(2) Ruling Request Made Before Result of Match Is Final.
When a player wants a referee or the Committee to decide how to apply the Rules to his or her own play or the opponent’s play, the player may make a request for a ruling.

If a referee or the Committee is not available in a reasonable time, the player may make the request for a ruling by notifying the opponent that a later ruling will be sought when a referee or the Committee becomes available.

If a player makes a request for a ruling before the result of the match is final:

• A ruling will be given only if the request is made in time, which depends on when the player becomes aware of the facts creating the Rules issue:
  
  • When Player Becomes Aware of the Facts Before Either Player Starts the Final Hole of the Match. When the player becomes aware of the facts, the ruling request must be made before either player makes a stroke to begin another hole.
  • 
    
  • If the player does not make the request in this time, a ruling will not be given by a referee or the Committee and the result of the hole(s) in question will stand even if the Rules were applied in the wrong way.

Apologies, but after three glasses of Rioja, is the answer to the Op‘s
question , Yes or No?

 

[nickjdavis]

Sounds to me like this would end up being the word of A against the word of B.....and if any one from either team had played a shot from the tee at the 2nd hole before the claim was made, then the claim was made too late.

Frankly the player making the claim is an idiot for leaving it so late before mentioning it.

 

[Colin L]

I heard a story today on a match play situation where on the second tee one team was saying they were one up but got a response from one of the opposition that it was not the case as the player that has won the hole had grounded his club in the bunker. Can you apply a rule after the event?

I'm not sure how you could apply a rule before an event.

 

[Foxholer]

I'm not sure how you could apply a rule before an event.

DQ for invalid entry?
As for the question in the OP...Seems to me that the claim of grounding a club should have been made at the time.

 

[Colin L]

DQ for invalid entry?

I was just playing with words and I know Crazyface meant later rather than at the time of something happening. But I'll pick you up on that. How could you DQ for an invalid entry before submission of the entry (i.e the "event)?

The opponent has until the first stroke from the next tee to say that he wanted a ruling but I expect you're wondering, as would most of us, why he didn't point out the breach at the time it took place ..........allegedly.

 

[Foxholer]

I was just playing with words and I know Crazyface meant later rather than at the time of something happening. But I'll pick you up on that. How could you DQ for an invalid entry before submission of the entry (i.e the "event)?

The opponent has until the first stroke from the next tee to say that he wanted a ruling but I expect you're wondering, as would most of us, why he didn't point out the breach at the time it took place ..........allegedly.

Agreed! That was the reason for the '?'.
And Yes, I would, indeed, be wondering/questioning/challenging why.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As a related aside…Something is niggling away that says the rule about touching sand in bunker changed in the more recent rule changes…so that I can touch the sand with my club without penalty so long as I am not testing the sand. I haven’t ever done this to test what I think but is it related to not being penalised if you drop your club in a bunker, or if you use your club to lift the handle of a rake that is lying in a bunker.

 

[backwoodsman]

As a related aside…Something is niggling away that says the rule about touching sand in bunker changed in the more recent rule changes…so that I can touch the sand with my club without penalty so long as I am not testing the sand. I haven’t ever done this to test what I think but is it related to not being penalised if you drop your club in a bunker, or if you use your club to lift the handle of a rake that is lying in a bunker.

You'll need to read the rule for full detail, but, paraphrasing , touching the sand in "care for the course" or "accidents" don't count, but in making your shot you still can't ground your club or touch sand on the backswing.

 

[rulie]

DQ for invalid entry?
As for the question in the OP...Seems to me that the claim of grounding a club should have been made at the time.

Was it made in time according to the Rule quoted above?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You'll need to read the rule for full detail, but, paraphrasing , touching the sand in "care for the course" or "accidents" don't count, but in making your shot you still can't ground your club or touch sand on the backswing.

That’s what I thought. I’ve had a debate in the past as to whether or not I’d be penalised if I accidentally dropped my club in a bunker or if I touched the sand while using a club to lift a rake handle. I believe no longer (if ever I can’t remember) so just thinking about OP question and just what ‘grounded his club’ (in a bunker) had triggered the debate over who had won the hole. Clearly if done at address yes penalty…and ‘grounding club‘ doesn’t sound like touching sand in backswing.

 

[Foxholer]

Was it made in time according to the Rule quoted above?

Quite likely, but my comment still stands.

 

[rulie]

That’s what I thought. I’ve had a debate in the past as to whether or not I’d be penalised if I accidentally dropped my club in a bunker or if I touched the sand while using a club to lift a rake handle. I believe no longer (if ever I can’t remember) so just thinking about OP question and just what ‘grounded his club’ (in a bunker) had triggered the debate over who had won the hole. Clearly if done at address yes penalty…and ‘grounding club‘ doesn’t sound like touching sand in backswing.

Even prior to the 2019 Rule changes neither of those actions would result in a penalty.

 

[jim8flog]

Even prior to the 2019 Rule changes neither of those actions would result in a penalty.

I remember having quite a 'discussion' with one player on that very point after using my club to lift the rake.

I in fact use the rake or my club to aid me getting into and out of bunkers under Rule 5 - 3.1 (Modified Rules for players with a disability)

 

[Colin L]

Jim.

You don't need the Modified Rules to sanction using a rake or club as an aid for getting in and out of bunkers, do you?

 

[IslaG]

Maybe the opponent was waiting to see if they easily won the hole and then might have decided to overlook the breach - as is their prerogative. But I agree a ‘he said : she said’ scenario and very hard to resolve especially if not addressed immediately

 

[rulie]

I remember having quite a 'discussion' with one player on that very point after using my club to lift the rake.

I in fact use the rake or my club to aid me getting into and out of bunkers under Rule 5 - 3.1 (Modified Rules for players with a disability)

I used to purposely use a club to pick the rake out of the bunker, touching the sand as I did so, just to get a rise from others.

 

[salfordlad]

Touching the sand in the bunker does not need a good reason, you are free to touch the sand provided you do not breach the specified restrictions in rule 12 - key ones being no testing sand, no practice swings (in your bunker) and no touching in the area in front of and behind the ball, including in your stroke's backswing.

 

[Swango1980]

My thinking, without combing over the rule book to confirm, was that any breach raised by a player in match play always had to be done without undue delay. Therefore, if the breach happened during the play of a hole, they'd have to raise this issue asap. So, unless there was a valid reason they couldn't inform the player before the end of the hole, they could not simply wait until the players completed the hole, and then simply state the breach on the next tee box? If that were true, it would seem the the answer to the OP was most likely a "No".

I've had a brief look through the rules, and I cannot confirm the above is actually (still) true. Is it a case where any claim can simply wait until beginning the next hole? It seems strange, in that a player could potentially make a breach early on in the hole. For example, on a par 5 they may have played their second shot out of the fairway bunker, and the opponent believe they illegally touched the sand. Can the opponent simply wait for the next 10-15 minutes for players to continue taking their shots, and then after losing / halving the hole THEN make the claim there was a rule breach?