Appeal against speeding fine

[AliMc]

My daughter is likely to be receiving a speeding ticket and potentially have her licence revoked.
First of all there is no denying that when she passed under the gantry she was speeding, that is not in question, but the circumstances are questionable.
The road is from South Queensferry back to Edinburgh at the sweeping left hand bend where it joins the M9 heading to Newbridge, it's a 70mph limit.
She was in the inside lane going up a slight incline and pulled out to pass a lorry as she had to get into the right hand lane, both lanes then turn left, two other lanes go off to the right. As she was just about past the lorry she was almost under the gantry and it was showing the speed limit as 40mph, she breaked gently but could brake hard due to the car on her tail which had pulled out behind her, the camera flashed, she thought she was doing around 55mph.
The thing is the first time it displayed it was a 40mph was on the gantry, there was no other indication on the way there. I drove back home past there yesterday and approaching the slight incline there's a huge tree off to the left in full leaf that is obscuring the gantry, i reckon that on passing the tree at around 60mph you would have at most 3 or 4 seconds until you were under the gantry, at a busy time with all vehicles generally doing around 50 to 60mph there's little time to slam on your brakes to come down to 40 as you pass under the gantry, it most certainly wouldn't be safe to do so.
We're heading that way again today and I'm going to get her to take a photo of the tree obscuring the gantry and time how long it takes to reach the gantry.
This was only on Thursday so still 12 days for any potential ticket to arrive but I've no doubt it will.
I've looked online and the chances of success in appealing it seems slim but as she only been driving for a year and a half she will have her licence revoked, will have to take more lessons and resit both tests, this at a time when she is try to get an Apprenticeship at a garage we'll have to try and appeal it.
She genuinely is a very careful driver, she fully accepts she was speeding at that moment but in the circumstances it seems incredibly harsh that she could have her licence revoked.
Very sorry for the extremely long first post.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

A speeding fine usually brings a 3 point fine. Why would that revoke her licence? Does it not have to reach 12 points for that?

A quick Google suggests 6 points are required in the first 2 years to lose your licence.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

A speeding fine usually brings a 3 point fine. Why would that revoke her licence? Does it not have to reach 12 points for that?

Guess it depends on how long they have had the license for

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Guess it depends on how long they have had the license for

I've edited the above post. Should be okay still, unless Google is wrong (which it could be)

 

[AliMc]

Guess it depends on how long they have had the license for

As mentioned in the post she had her licence a year and a half, given the probably mphb9ver the limit its possibly a 6 point offence hence the licence being revoked, at this moment she would bite your hand off for 3 points and a fine

 

[Imurg]

6 points in your 1st 2 years leads to a licence revoked.
3 points for speeding, although it can be 6 for a "good one" as an examiner once said....to me that's 90 or 100 on a motorway....
Unless she's got a previous ticket it shouldn't lead to losing her licence but she'll need to be careful for the next 6 mo the.
After that it reverts to 12 points to before a ban.
Worth gathering all the info and being ready for an appeal if the ticket does come through..

 

[AliMc]

As mentioned in the post she had her licence a year and a half, given the probably mphb9ver the limit its possibly a 6 point offence hence the licence being revoked, at this moment she would bite your hand off for 3 points and a fine

'probable mph over the limit'

 

[Deleted member 35927]

They have a long list of reasons on the ticket why an appeal will fail. This will probably be in that list.

 

[AliMc]

6 points in your 1st 2 years leads to a licence revoked.
3 points for speeding, although it can be 6 for a "good one" as an examiner once said....to me that's 90 or 100 on a motorway....
Unless she's got a previous ticket it shouldn't lead to losing her licence but she'll need to be careful for the next 6 mo the.
After that it reverts to 12 points to before a ban.
Worth gathering all the info and being ready for an appeal if the ticket does come through..

Thanks Imurg, hopefully if anything it will be 3 points only and a fine as she's got nothing so far, as i said I'm going to try, if possible, to have a good look today, might not be easy as it's a busy bit of road

 

[AliMc]

They have a long list of reasons on the ticket why an appeal will fail. This will probably be in that list.

Yeah I appreciate that, but I feel that they can't just impose the temporary speed limit in these circumstances without giving people advance notice, added to the tree partially blocking the view of the gantry, if I had stepped hard on the brakes yesterday when in a similar situation yesterday (except it was still 70mph) it could have been absolute carnage, it's almost like they had created a situation where she had little option but to try and slow down gently and accept the fact that she was speeding

 

[nickjdavis]

I guess this is what you need to challenge then with your photo evidence (taken from the National Highways Agency website..)

Visibility of VSL signs​

The enforcement equipment includes video cameras which are directed at the signs to 'see', 'read' and record the displayed speed limit.
This provides assurance that the limit being enforced is visible to drivers. If the camera can see and interpret the speed limit, then we know that drivers can see and interpret the same signs.
Our VSL signage complies with the applicable Design Manual for Roads and Bridges which ensures they are visible to drivers from at least 300 metres away.
This means that, no matter what speed limits are set on other nearby gantries (including the 70mph National Speed Limit), the displayed VSL must always be complied with.


If the sign was visible from 300 meters then at 60mph she had roughly 11 seconds to react. Usually though, if a variable speed limit is set, prior gantries give warning in advance (flashing signs?).

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes if you can prove there was no visible warning prior to the bridge or it’s obscured as many are nowadays then definitely contest it.

They would need to monitor this temporary sign and drop the trigger on the camera as it would normally be set for 70mph.
Not sure if this is automatic or not.
Good luck.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

Yeah I appreciate that, but I feel that they can't just impose the temporary speed limit in these circumstances without giving people advance notice, added to the tree partially blocking the view of the gantry, if I had stepped hard on the brakes yesterday when in a similar situation yesterday (except it was still 70mph) it could have been absolute carnage, it's almost like they had created a situation where she had little option but to try and slow down gently and accept the fact that she was speeding

Good luck and I understand, my wife felt she had mitigating circumstances but sadly once we read through the ticket , they aren't that many.

 

[clubchamp98]

Good luck and I understand, my wife felt she had mitigating circumstances but sadly once we read through the ticket , they aren't that many.

Some of the reasons given on the ticket won’t stand up in court if you can prove they didn’t stick to their part of the bargain.
Like not trimming trees due to lack of funds and said trees blocking visibility of signs.

Like a lot of things the list is there to put you off appealing but a magistrate might see it differently.
It’s worth a go.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

As mentioned in the post she had her licence a year and a half, given the probably mphb9ver the limit its possibly a 6 point offence hence the licence being revoked, at this moment she would bite your hand off for 3 points and a fine

A Couple of times I've been sure I've got a speeding ticket , but it never arrived, so don't worry too much

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Take it to court. Mate of mine got done for going over 100 when he was younger got away with a massive fine and a 3 month ban rather than extra points

Explain the importance for the licence

I mean many people out there with more than the allowed points still driving because they apply for hardship

 

[clubchamp98]

Take it to court. Mate of mine got done for going over 100 when he was younger got away with a massive fine and a 3 month ban rather than extra points

Explain the importance for the licence

I mean many people out there with more than the allowed points still driving because they apply for hardship

Agree.
I’m sure if the circumstances were explained to a magistrate they would be sympathetic

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Agree.
I’m sure if the circumstances were explained to a magistrate they would be sympathetic

I made the mistake of pleading guilty by post

I got 6 points and lost my licence where as he went in front of a judge got 5 points if I remember and a 3 month ban. But meant he kept his licence

Worked out about the same (not same time or same offence) as I had no ban I redid my test etc within 2 months

 

[Billysboots]

Lots of factors in play here. First thing to say is that the time to actually worry is when the ticket arrives, not before.

Back in the day, I seem to recall we were always told that it was a little overzealous to apply speed enforcement at the point of a change in speed limit. As such, it does seem a little unfair to have a camera flash anyone when the limit reduces at the same point. But that all seemed to change when variable speed limits became the norm on motorways. Now, it seems the requirement is that drivers only need have sufficient time to react to any limit change.

If you can argue that the speed limit signs at the gantry were obscured and allowed insufficient reaction time then an appeal may be successful, but I must say that argument may be ambitious given the fact the incident was on a motorway, where forward views are rarely anything less than considerable.

In my experience from the enforcement side, in the event that losing your licence is possible, then attending court in person, pleading guilty but then citing mitigation as to why a licence is so important is perhaps the best option. But the trade off is likely to be a hefty fine.

 

[SocketRocket]

Would being 15 mph over the limit exclude you from having the opportunity of a Speed Awareness Course?

EDIT:
Just read up and the upper limit is 10% + 9 mph, so could be close.