Another CSS moan...

[Imurg]

Ist Midweek Stableford of the season recently. I couldn't play it and only 13 did as the weather wasn't particularly good.
Only 1 player beat handicap - scored 38 off 11
Only 5 made buffer. (1x36, 3x35, 1 x 34)
The rest were nowhere - 32 down to 27.

CSS still came down a shot from 69 to 68,(2 under par)
The weather wasn't good, only 1 player played well and still it moves.
Flies in the face of CSS coming down when everyone plays well in good weather.
Bloody nonsense......

Every course has a Standard Scratch Score rating done by the County(or whoever). Our original handicaps are calculated from that. It's never used again. Why? It's a perfectly good means of assessing play without using par, which is meaningless most of the time.

Having a CSS means you never know what you're trying to beat. It moves seemingly on a whim of the Computer.

Senseless.

 

[birdieman]

Great when it goes up though!

Only comes down 1 max, but can go up 3 before it's a non-qualifier, where's the problem?

It's not senseless it is based on analysis of all scoring, including people taking 10's and 12's etc which you won't see looking at it from outwith.

CSS is there to help fair handicapping and works fairly well even if it does occassionally frustrate.

 

[Ronnoc1980]

Cost me 1.1 in HC cut last yr im not bitter!

Much

 

[Imurg]

Great when it goes up though!

Only comes down 1 max, but can go up 3 before it's a non-qualifier, where's the problem?

It's not senseless it is based on analysis of all scoring, including people taking 10's and 12's etc which you won't see looking at it from outwith.

CSS is there to help fair handicapping and works fairly well even if it does occassionally frustrate.

But why is it there at all? All the reasons given in the Mag this month point to it stemming from playing in poor weather. Well this time it was poor weather and instead of going up, it goes down.
THere is no need for it. If you play badly then you go up .1 - it's not as if you get a couple of shots back. If you play well then you get cut. Simples.
Weather has nothing to do with it. I've scored 42 points in howling wind and rain, also score 19 on a windless, sunny day. And Vice Versa as well.

 

[MashieNiblick]

I understand the thinking for CSS to go up to allow for poor conditions but why should it go down just because the playing conditions are favourable. H/c's are supposed to represent your playing potential why should that not include the best conditions too.

I see from the CONGU site that CSS goes down more often than it goes up (22% compared to 19%) but I don't think that reflects the weather most of our golf is played in. Why can't they just let us enjoy the full benefit good days. It's the same for everyone.

 

[birdieman]

Weather has nothing tio do with it???

Rory McIlroy at the Open went 63/80 and you're telling me weather had nothing to do with that?

 

[Imurg]

Weather has nothing to do with it. I've scored 42 points in howling wind and rain, also score 19 on a windless, sunny day. And Vice Versa as well.

If I can score 42 points in good conditions and bad conditions then weather has little to do with it. I can score well or badly regardless of the weather. I'm a handicap Golfer, I don't need a howling gale to knock one into the next postcode. But equally I'm capable of keeping it in my back garden under the same conditions.
Why should that affect the number I'm trying to beat?
It's the same for everyone. We all have our handicaps (except Bob) and if we play well we should get a cut, if we play badly we go up .1, if we do ok we make buffer and stay the same.
Why complicate a perfectly straight-forward process?

Ref Rory's rounds - if it had been me then I'd get a whopping cut for the first and a .1 back for the second.
Simple.

 

[doubletripledouble]

NO NO NO.
Par - self explanatory.
SSS - basically given to a course by a 'trained volunteer' who had a sheet of paper to tick boxes off regarding obstacles on each hole. Our 'volunteers' were two guys with 20+ h/caps. I bet if i was to go down and look through the records of the last 5 years various opens and look at visitors CSS it would be at least 70 or 71(1 or 2 more than our current SSS) Surely this would be a much better way of telling how hard a course is.
CSS - An absolute waste of time. It must have went down to 68 at least 85% of the time last year at my place.

You know the system is flawed if some of your low guys are joining Leven Links in the hope that they can get a cut to their handicaps..

 

[Fyldewhite]

So you are saying that nearly half the field played to SSS+2 or better. Compare that to an average round in summer, even in good conditions. That is why it went down. For whatever reason the course scored easier perhaps due to pin positions or wind direction or whatever. This will obviously happen more with a smaller sample but it's the rules, it ain't going to change (because it actually makes sense) so just live with it.

 

[Whee]

Please could someone just let on what this SSS/CSS Rating is all about? I've never heard anybody discuss it on our weekly casual rounds, or even on Monthly Medal rounds.

The SSS on my local course 71.1 - Par is 72

Slope Rating of 131 if that helps anybody?

Cheers.

 

[Imurg]

So you are saying that nearly half the field played to SSS+2 or better. Compare that to an average round in summer, even in good conditions. That is why it went down. For whatever reason the course scored easier perhaps due to pin positions or wind direction or whatever. This will obviously happen more with a smaller sample but it's the rules, it ain't going to change (because it actually makes sense) so just live with it.

This is my problem Fylde. I know how it all works but I don't see the sense behind it.
If I've played well and beaten SSS by a shot, why should that "effective" par change just because everyone else played well? If everyone plays well, everyone gets cut. If everyone plays badly, everyone goes up .1

 

[chrisd]

If everyone plays well, everyone gets cut. If everyone plays badly, everyone goes up .1

WOW ! A golfer with common sense, he'll never get anywhere in golf management!


Chris

 

[Fyldewhite]

This is my problem Fylde. I know how it all works but I don't see the sense behind it.

I know.

Sort of understand where you are coming from but it should be fairly rare for the CSS to differ from the SSS. If it does regularly then the SSS is probably wrong. It is only by doing the calculation over many comps and thousands of rounds that you can actually verify that the SSS is correct. If there were no CSS calculation you would never know..... and wonder why you could never score when go away.

 

[USER1999]

But surely CSS is only effected by cat 1 and cat 2 golfers? If out of 40 entries there is only one cat 1 and 2 golfer, and he shoots under SSS, then it drags the CSS down by one shot regardless of how the others play.

@Whee, we don't have a slope system in the UK. There is a nominal par figure, say 72.
There is a standard scratch score (SSS), which relates to the score a scratch player should shoot round the course and takes into account the length and difficulty of the course. This can be anywhere from a few over par, to 5 or 6 under for a short course.
Then in a comp, the SSS is modified by 1 down to 3 up to take into account the difficulty of the conditions, and how the field does (mainly influenced by cat 1 and 2 golfers, h/caps 0 to 12). This is CSS, competition standard scratch.

Complicated?

 

[MashieNiblick]

Murph, as far as I can tell CSS calculation includes cat 3 as well. Got this from the CONGU site FAQs on CSS

http://www.congu.com/FAQs.htm

"The mechanics of the CSS calculation are:
- Establish the composition of the ‘field’ as a percentage of each handicap
category excluding category 4 for men or category 5 for ladies. e.g. 10% Cat.1
50% Cat.2 40% Cat3[[+ Cat. 4 for Ladies]
- Establish the percentage of the ‘field’ (Cat.1 + Cat.2 + Cat.3 [+ Cat.4]) with a
Net score of the SSS +2 or better e.g. 20%
- Refer to Appendix B Competition Scratch Score Table"

Same source indicates CCS is reduced 22% of the time but that's over the year and in the summer it's more like 35%.

I just think, as you said, why have CSS at all, or if it's to give us a break when conditions are tough let it go up but I don't see why it should go down. Why shouldn't our handicaps reflect how we play in ideal conditions?