America and its extraordinary gun laws

Foxholer said:
Anyone remember Dunblane? Or Hungerford?

There are nutters all over the world and it's not that difficult to get access to firearms - anywhere.
Click to expand...

A direct consequence of dunblane was the tightening of our gun control laws.

Not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that it is not that difficult to get access to firearms? The vast majority of people in the UK wouldn't have a clue how to get hold of firearms, myself included.

In the U.S. I could just put them in the trolley alongside my weekly shop, or for a handgun just walk into a gun shop, then wait two weeks for the cooling off period.

There are nutters everywhere, yes, but making it easy for nutters to get guns gives you a bigger problem. Most of these mass shootings in the U.S. are carried out with legal weapons.

Nutters in the UK these days go crazy with a knock off samurai sword, or a machete, not good obviously but a lot less destructive in terms of the amount of people that are harmed than firearms.
 
Oh boy, topics here really raise my ire as a Brit living in the USA...

Let me try and give my viewpoint and experiences...

1. I used to live in rural Appalachia. There were people who lived there who needed to shoot for food for their families (mainly deer.) Whether you think the Government should be taking care of them were not, the vast majority of these people were very proud and did not see using the government dime as a good thing. They were also undoubtedly the most responsible gun owners I have come across.

2. The right to defend your property with a fire arm is so ensconced in the American mindset that no amount of legislation is going to change it. On the whole, I would say the Police is more corrupt than in the UK with far less checkers and oversight in both rural and city areas.

3. Guns used for violent crime (especially among the African American population) are often obtained illegally. They have no firearms training and clearly have the weapons to create mayhem.

I spend a lot of of my time trying to explain how Darwinian Evolution through the process of natural selection works to religious Americans. Simply, they are brainwashed (many of them) to think the universe is young, the story of biblical creation is literally true, that evolution means we come from monkeys and that God takes a special interest in American politics and supports conservative Republicans. Factoid...there is not one, a single Senator or Congressman who even says they are agnostic or atheist. To do so would be political suicide.

So how do you expect to have a debate on something like gun control and expect rationality?

As for Obama, I would rather not speak. I find very little common ground with him on any of the issues I consider important.
 
Kellfire said:
The second amendment allows a militia to bear arms to defend "the people". It does not give individuals the right to bear arms for the sake of it. Sadly this will not be implemented properly because Republicans hold too many votes and Democrats aren't strong enough to force it through.
Click to expand...

Democrats could not force it through when they controlled both houses because many Democrats are not as far to the left as Obama and Clinton and company.

The USA should not be thought of as one nation, more a series of mini nations (states) and then districts within a state (counties.) Bluntly, in many of those districts, I would have no issue with having a gun at home for personal protection, as indeed, I have done.

The world Obama and Clinton come from they have people to carry guns for them...
 
craigstardis1976 said:
Democrats could not force it through when they controlled both houses because many Democrats are not as far to the left as Obama and Clinton and company.

The USA should not be thought of as one nation, more a series of mini nations (states) and then districts within a state (counties.) Bluntly, in many of those districts, I would have no issue with having a gun at home for personal protection, as indeed, I have done.

The world Obama and Clinton come from they have people to carry guns for them...
Click to expand...

Why do you feel it protects you, what is it protecting you from? I'm pretty sure there are a whole host of stats that show you and your family are at much more risk if you have a gun in the home, than if you don't. Doesn't sound like much protection.
 
CheltenhamHacker said:
Why do you feel it protects you, what is it protecting you from? I'm pretty sure there are a whole host of stats that show you and your family are at much more risk if you have a gun in the home, than if you don't. Doesn't sound like much protection.
Click to expand...

I previously lived in a high crime area where the local police did very little to curb it other than being totally reactive. Many homes were broken into while they were occupied by people with guns to steal primarily for drug money.

I had a shot gun and knew how to maintain it and use it properly. We knew the police would not respond during a burglary and I was not prepared to be shot at should I have tried to defend my property from people with guns without a chance to defend myself.
 
adam6177 said:
I for one loved the argument(s) that if the now deceased reporters were armed they could have fought back or in fact the notion that they "may" have been armed been enough to scare the guy off the idea of killing them.

Most powerful nation on the planet.....how frightening.
Click to expand...

That's the standard fall-back argument for the gun lobby. So one person holding a microphone and interviewing someone, and the other using both hands to control a camera, would be able to get to any guns they may be carrying on them before they were shot. If it was not so tragic it would be laughable.
 
craigstardis1976 said:
There is but one constant issue in America is states rights versus federal rights. As a rule of thumb, Republicans tend to champion states rights, Democrats federal rights. Especially on polarizing issues such as gun control.
Click to expand...

States Rights is a code for going back to the good old days in the redneck states when the white folks kept the black folks in their place (as they saw it).

The States Rights dog whistle code was part of the Southern Strategy started during Reagan's campaign for the Presidency.
 
Ethan said:
States Rights is a code for going back to the good old days in the redneck states when the white folks kept the black folks in their place (as they saw it).

The States Rights dog whistle code was part of the Southern Strategy started during Reagan's campaign for the Presidency.
Click to expand...

Oblivious.



A rather simplistic take on it, one would think.
 
Ethan:

Maybe in some states but let's remember some states are still not that old. Arizona, where I am at the moment did not become a state until 1912 and is certainly not a "redneck" state yet state rights are very important here.

The situation with black people in the USA is so complicated but if I were to sum it up from my experiences it would be this:

You cannot oppress a group of people for 300 odd years and in 15 years or so legislate equal rights for them without first educating the mass of non-black population and once you have introduced the legislation give the black people the chance to become educated to a level where they can exercise these new rights in an equitable way.

This never happened as the civil rights movement became less about rights and more about posturing politics, especially from the likes of Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc. Violent sub-cultures developed where social frustration found its outlets in gang and violent behavior together with an irresponsibility that tore the fabric of black society and downspiraled it to the point that the majority of black kids have no father in the home and the mainstream culture they are exposed too and become part of at an early age has very few redeeming features unless they are lucky enough to be the offspring of educated parents who were financially stable enough to move to predominantly non black areas.

We are now at a stage where to criticize what has happened itself is seen as an act of racism and the leaders who proclaim to represent black people transparently want to keep them where they are, only paying lip service to the real issues, so they can pretend to represent the people they claim to keep their own individual power base.

It is a mess, totally and gun violence among black people is only one symptom of a far greater malaise facing the whole population of the USA regardless of color.
 
craigstardis1976 said:
....
You cannot oppress a group of people for 300 odd years and in 15 years or so legislate equal rights for them without first educating the mass of non-black population and once you have introduced the legislation give the black people the chance to become educated to a level where they can exercise these new rights in an equitable way.

This never happened as the civil rights movement became less about rights and more about posturing politics, especially from the likes of Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc. Violent sub-cultures developed where social frustration found its outlets in gang and violent behavior together with an irresponsibility that tore the fabric of black society and downspiraled it to the point that the majority of black kids have no father in the home and the mainstream culture they are exposed too and become part of at an early age has very few redeeming features unless they are lucky enough to be the offspring of educated parents who were financially stable enough to move to predominantly non black areas.....
Click to expand...

It's rather more than 15 years! It's been over 50 years (getting into nearly 2 generations) since ML King was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize!

That's a horrendous picture you paint though!
 
Foxholer said:
It's rather more than 15 years! It's been over 50 years (getting into nearly 2 generations) since ML King was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize!

That's a horrendous picture you paint though!
Click to expand...

I meant the fifteen year stretch from 1954-1969 when black civil rights was at its zenith.

It is indeed horrendous. So horrendous in fact that to bring it up is considered verboten and almost definitely leading the speaker to accusations of racialism.
 
I am a firearms owner in the UK, as I live on a farm, and firearms are a tool for pest control, in my case foxes, who cause damage to poultry and livestock. I also take part in target shooting, and clay pigeon shooting, and guns are part and parcel of farm life.

It isn't by any means easy to get a firearm in the UK: applications are long and beaurocratic, which require two referees, vigorous police checks (including people who live in your household), health checks, the police checking that the land is suitable for the specific calibre applied for, and a genuine need for the said firearms. Guns must be stored in a locked safe, and ammunition must be stored in a locked place in another area of the home.

Unfortunately, the historic massacres have given British gun users a bad name, and no doubt tarred shooters with the "psycho" brush, which the media is very keen to jump on. The Hungerford Massacre caused semi-automatic centerfire rifles to be banned, and Dunblane caused pistols to also be banned. The Derrick Bird Shooting didn't cause any knee-jerk reaction as such, but sadly all of the perpetrators were legal firearms owners.

There will always be people for and against guns, but nothing will ever change, particularly in the USA.
 
craigstardis1976 said:
Ethan:

Maybe in some states but let's remember some states are still not that old. Arizona, where I am at the moment did not become a state until 1912 and is certainly not a "redneck" state yet state rights are very important here.

The situation with black people in the USA is so complicated but if I were to sum it up from my experiences it would be this:

You cannot oppress a group of people for 300 odd years and in 15 years or so legislate equal rights for them without first educating the mass of non-black population and once you have introduced the legislation give the black people the chance to become educated to a level where they can exercise these new rights in an equitable way.

This never happened as the civil rights movement became less about rights and more about posturing politics, especially from the likes of Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc. Violent sub-cultures developed where social frustration found its outlets in gang and violent behavior together with an irresponsibility that tore the fabric of black society and downspiraled it to the point that the majority of black kids have no father in the home and the mainstream culture they are exposed too and become part of at an early age has very few redeeming features unless they are lucky enough to be the offspring of educated parents who were financially stable enough to move to predominantly non black areas.

We are now at a stage where to criticize what has happened itself is seen as an act of racism and the leaders who proclaim to represent black people transparently want to keep them where they are, only paying lip service to the real issues, so they can pretend to represent the people they claim to keep their own individual power base.

It is a mess, totally and gun violence among black people is only one symptom of a far greater malaise facing the whole population of the USA regardless of color.
Click to expand...

Did you forget the part about mass incarceration of black people leading to many households not having a father, or the cops shooting them with impunity.

Easy for you to dismiss much of it as posturing politics. Would you say the same about the actions of Sheriff Arpaio, his mate the laughable Steven Seagal, the unofficial border guards and your Governor?
 
Ethan said:
Did you forget the part about mass incarceration of black people leading to many households not having a father, or the cops shooting them with impunity.

Easy for you to dismiss much of it as posturing politics. Would you say the same about the actions of Sheriff Arpaio, his mate the laughable Steven Seagal, the unofficial border guards and your Governor?
Click to expand...

I am not dismissing it. I was just saying these were my observations. Would you agree with my basic premise that en masse the black population never had the chance to be educated to the point of responsibility to exercise the rights they were granted?

The mass incarceration of black males is the result of a culture that has developed whereby the values of previous black generations of Americans have been ridiculed and destroyed in favor of a hedonistic culture backed up with a culture of welfare dependence and violence. Many blacks are literally destroying each others futures in a race to the bottom, fueled by their desires for alcohol, drugs and sex without the responsibility of taking care of the consequences of such actions. When it becomes a celebrated and embraced part of their popular culture, the elephant in the room can no longer be ignored. Education, once the cornerstone of black progress in America is now primarily seen as little more than an opportunity to excel in certain collegiate sports. And I say this as someone who graduated from an Historically Black College and University.

Having read the works of MLK and spoken first hand to many older black Americans, I do not believe the culture now associated and partaken by many black people in the USA has anything to do with the values the MLK generation were raised with or wanted their futures to be embrace.

I find the acts of police shooting unarmed black men reprehensible. And I find it impossible to justify.

The political posturing of Joe Arapio and successive Governors of Arizona are also reprehensible. I have very little in common with Arapio and at one time was publicly at loggerheads with former Governor Jan Brewer when I exposed a ten million dollar federal fraud depriving a community of much needed income and several hundred people who became jobless as a result.

I have had run-in's with official and unofficial border guards. Neither were pleasant and my overall respect for law enforcement in the USA which was never high to begin with is now scraping the floor.

We can discuss cause and symptoms forever but nothing will change without a thorough dismantling of the popular culture and the uptake of personal responsibility combined with creating genuine opportunities on a level playing field without the crutches of affirmative action and cultural accommodations that may once have been needed but are now used cynically.
 
Last edited:
craigstardis1976 said:
I am not dismissing it. I was just saying these were my observations. Would you agree with my basic premise that en masse the black population never had the chance to be educated to the point of responsibility to exercise the rights they were granted?

The mass incarceration of black males is the result of a culture that has developed whereby the values of previous black generations of Americans have been ridiculed and destroyed in favor of a hedonistic culture backed up with a culture of welfare dependence and violence. Many blacks are literally destroying each others futures in a race to the bottom, fueled by their desires for alcohol, drugs and sex without the responsibility of taking care of the consequences of such actions. When it becomes a celebrated and embraced part of their popular culture, the elephant in the room can no longer be ignored. Education, once the cornerstone of black progress in America is now primarily seen as little more than an opportunity to excel in certain collegiate sports. And I say this as someone who graduated from an Historically Black College and University.

Having read the works of MLK and spoken first hand to many older black Americans, I do not believe the culture now associated and partaken by many black people in the USA has anything to do with the values the MLK generation were raised with or wanted their futures to be embrace.

I find the acts of police shooting unarmed black men reprehensible. And I find it impossible to justify.

The political posturing of Joe Arapio and successive Governors of Arizona are also reprehensible. I have very little in common with Arapio and at one time was publicly at loggerheads with former Governor Jan Brewer when I exposed a ten million dollar federal fraud depriving a community of much needed income and several hundred people who became jobless as a result.

I have had run-in's with official and unofficial border guards. Neither were pleasant and my overall respect for law enforcement in the USA which was never high to begin with is now scraping the floor.

We can discuss cause and symptoms forever but nothing will change without a thorough dismantling of the popular culture and the uptake of personal responsibility combined with creating genuine opportunities on a level playing field without the crutches of affirmative action and cultural accommodations that may once have been needed but are now used cynically.
Click to expand...

Interesting experiences.

I think the question of educating black Americans to the point of responsibility is a tricky one. The range of characteristics of the white population strongly overlaps that of the black one, and most blacks and most whites are pretty much the same as each other, and therefore it is a problematic concept to educate the blacks selectively to exercise civil responsibility. This is similar to the statistical maxim that the differences within groups generally exceed the differences between them.

And one could say that the residual racism of states rights etc created the circumstances where black Americans lost out on education, jobs and other opportunities compared to whites, and that was further exacerbated by voter suppression and the filing of the prisons to fulfil contracts for occupancy with private providers. It is basically an accepted fact that blacks have a substantially greater chance of jail time for exact same offences as whites. The war on drugs is over, and society lost. Then these convicts lose their vote.

I am not surprised that many older black people hate where things have gone, but I am less convinced things went there through choice.

Getting a population to move from irresponsibility to responsibility has been tried many times and I am unaware if anywhere it has succeeded.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top