A Tweet from Caroline Lucas MP

[ferenezejohn]

Just returned from my daily allowance... I get out, through the woods, to Haste Hill and Northwood golf courses... Both were 'busy' with walkers... From what I observed all were respecting the course... Did give a polite warning to one family, with young kids in tow, that the greens had been top dressed and best avoided...

Is that the same Northwood GC. that was subject of a TV documentary 1994.
It was comedy gold??

 

[clubchamp98]

So essentially if the members can't use the course for golf then no one can for walking?

Could I use Anfield for a kick about while Liverpool aren’t using it.?

 

[clubchamp98]

I'm just going on what I've seen in the local woods, groups of people quite clearly not following the code.
I'd say there could be mass parties on some golf courses, on a holes tucked away out of sight, cans of Carling littered around, bbq scorch marks on the green.
Ok, maybe that was a touch ott ?

And that’s just your swindle.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Just had a look at the twitter storm this tongue in cheek tweet inspired.
Definitely a Scotland/England split on the use of golf courses by non golfers.
Golfers are not coming out of this very well.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Yes, and here is one very good reason why. This is true.
One of my other hobbies is flying radio controlled model gliders on the top,of hills- slope soaring.
Some years ago, we were doing this , with the permission of the farmer on whose land we flying.
A non member of our club , doing the same thing , had his wife with him. Long story short she injured herself on the farmers gate.
Man sued the farmer! Claimed on his insurance.
First we knew was when the farmer chucked us off in a rage some weeks later because his solicitor had told him he had to pay.
The law had held that as he had implicitly given permission for the man to be there, then the farmer had a duty of care to anyone he allows on his land in that if anyone injures himself on the farmers equipment, gates,fences etc, then the farmer is liable.!
No wonder he drove up and told us to ----- off!
It was later resolved in that we agreed in writing not to sue,that we were there at our own risk etc, - and on that basis he gave us permission to be there.
So, why should a (struggling )golf club open themselves up to a similar possibility.?

If you use that logic then there would be no footpaths open in the UK as in this world it seems there is the potential claim as soon as anyone steps out of the house onto land owned by someone else.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Could I use Anfield for a kick about while Liverpool aren’t using it.?

Not really the same thing as the point being made is that golf courses are large areas of open space that could be used for people who do not have access to parks etc, for exercise under the current restrictions whilst at the same time social distancing.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Your right it’s not difficult.
But people are still doing it , so they will drive to golf courses to.
With the car parks closed they will be causing traffic in surrounding roads and parking problems ,
With people all at home I have noticed a lot of cars already parked outside houses where they live.
Golf courses are not parks or play areas, they have unfenced water, ditches and steep slopes.
How long before someone drowns , breaks leg slipping on a steep bank etc.
All requiring emergency services.
They are closed and should remain like that.

Would those slopes and unfenced water be like a normal bit of a lot of our countryside that people have been going to for centuries?

People would not drive to courses, that is the advice, they would be no different to any other park. And not sure where you play but I'm sure people can walk round a golf course and identify a lake and manage to avoid it and not drown. Or fall down some steep hill. And if a course does resemble a SAS assault course with hidden danger lurking at every step then keep it closed.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Essentially, why should members be paying subs to maintain a facility for the general public to misuse as a public park when said members can't use it for its designed purpose?

I'd argue this is at least the most honest answer and has not relied on huge levels of whataboutery and visits to the far reaches of any risk analysis. I'd slightly argue with the word 'misuse' if they are just using it for walking and their one bit of daily exercise. But I suppose it does come down to the perceived injustice of a course temporarily being used for something other than golf, if people who are paying an annual fee to play golf on it can't play golf on it. I know where I stand based on the very strange situation we are in and how everyone's lives has been impacted, others may have a different view.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I'd argue this is at least the most honest answer and has not relied on huge levels of whataboutery and visits to the far reaches of any risk analysis. I'd slightly argue with the word 'misuse' if they are just using it for walking and their one bit of daily exercise. But I suppose it does come down to the perceived injustice of a course temporarily being used for something other than golf, if people who are paying an annual fee to play golf on it can't play golf on it. I know where I stand based on the very strange situation we are in and how everyone's lives has been impacted, others may have a different view.

It all about perception.
When this is over people living near to a golf club who took a snooty view of locals exercising during a major crisis will take a totally different view of the membership than clubs who do not but barriers in place.
This was witnessed in the 1976 drought when some golf clubs continued to water their greens whilst local residents had their water cut off for long parts of the day.
Clubs only stopped watering when they were threatened with having their greens dug up and resentment to some of those clubs continued for years.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I'd argue this is at least the most honest answer and has not relied on huge levels of whataboutery and visits to the far reaches of any risk analysis. I'd slightly argue with the word 'misuse' if they are just using it for walking and their one bit of daily exercise. But I suppose it does come down to the perceived injustice of a course temporarily being used for something other than golf, if people who are paying an annual fee to play golf on it can't play golf on it. I know where I stand based on the very strange situation we are in and how everyone's lives has been impacted, others may have a different view.

As regards the comments of whataboutery & misuse, as I believe I've already posted on here, one member whose garden backs onto the course has already had to challenge three teenagers who thought a green was a perfectly suitable place for a game of football; the misuse of our property is already factual. That was before the Right Honourable halfwit for Brighton Pavilion stuck her oar in.

We already have other occasional issues with unauthorised access to the course; we can really do without any more thanks to the misguided & ill thought out comments from Ms. Lucas.

And having just paid nearly 2 grand to pay the maintenance on Ms. Lucas' new "public facility" that I am banned from, I can assure you that any sense of injustice is not perceived.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

If you use that logic then there would be no footpaths open in the UK as in this world it seems there is the potential claim as soon as anyone steps out of the house onto land owned by someone else.

It's not "that logic", which you seem to suggest means the same as " my opinion" .
It's fact. That's what happened, and my opinion is that that is why farmers, landowners etc have public liability insurance

 

[clubchamp98]

Would those slopes and unfenced water be like a normal bit of a lot of our countryside that people have been going to for centuries?

People would not drive to courses, that is the advice, they would be no different to any other park. And not sure where you play but I'm sure people can walk round a golf course and identify a lake and manage to avoid it and not drown. Or fall down some steep hill. And if a course does resemble a SAS assault course with hidden danger lurking at every step then keep it closed.

That sounds like you have never taken the kids out!
You need eyes in the back of your head not to lose one.
On my course there are places you just can’t go as the slopes are very big and you would definitely hurt yourself if you or a child fell.
As for the driving that’s not going to stop ,to many selfish people.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

That sounds like you have never taken the kids out!
You need eyes in the back of your head not to lose one.
On my course there are places you just can’t go as the slopes are very big and you would definitely hurt yourself if you or a child fell.
As for the driving that’s not going to stop ,to many selfish people.

Sorry but it sounds like you have never visited a children's play park, or god forbid an adventure play park.
My brother broke an ankle and split his chin using their equipment.

 

[clubchamp98]

As regards the comments of whataboutery & misuse, as I believe I've already posted on here, one member whose garden backs onto the course has already had to challenge three teenagers who thought a green was a perfectly suitable place for a game of football; the misuse of our property is already factual. That was before the Right Honourable halfwit for Brighton Pavilion stuck her oar in.

We already have other occasional issues with unauthorised access to the course; we can really do without any more thanks to the misguided & ill thought out comments from Ms. Lucas.

And having just paid nearly 2 grand to pay the maintenance on Ms. Lucas' new "public facility" that I am banned from, I can assure you that any sense of injustice is not perceived.

This for me.
We had a lot of unauthorised players on the course last year.
Once they had putted out they just played their tee shots off the green where they were standing.
That is the reality of the public ,most are fine but a big % are morons who don’t give a s...t.
It a matter of time if you let the public on until this % turn up with clubs.
At my club there is a massive park next door so I don’t think the majority would come on the course .
But that leaves the moron % that would!
But that happens most summers anyway ,but this is giving them permission.
I can just hear the excuses already” sorry officer Caroline Lucas said I could play here”

 

[clubchamp98]

Sorry but it sounds like you have never visited a children's play park, or god forbid an adventure play park.
My brother broke an ankle and split his chin using their equipment.

Yes they are full of kids that have no sense of danger .
Thank you for reinforcing my point.!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Yes they are full of kids that have no sense of danger .
Thank you for reinforcing my point.!

Broken ankle was caused by putting his foot through some rotten wood on a roundabout.
Split chin he tripped and fell into the but end of an iron horse see saw.
Nothing to do with his poor sense of danger.

 

[clubchamp98]

Broken ankle was caused by putting his foot through some rotten wood on a roundabout.
Split chin he tripped and fell into the but end of an iron horse see saw.
Nothing to do with his poor sense of danger.

Really .
If that’s what you think fine.
But I wouldn’t let him on my course you may never see him again!
Ankle would be a law suit now for not maintaining park amenities so a course could be liable.
Chin proves my point kids are careless and fall over all the time, but if he falls down a ten foot sheer slope into a water filled ditch he would be in trouble.
The golfers know where these dangers are but the public especially children running around Dont.

So for any lawyers out there.
If a child fell in a water course on a golf course opened to the public for exercise would the club be open to any form of legal action from the child’s family , or possibly H&S executive.?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Really .
If that’s what you think fine.
But I wouldn’t let him on my course you may never see him again!
Ankle would be a law suit now for not maintaining park amenities so a course could be liable.
Chin proves my point kids are careless and fall over all the time, but if he falls down a ten foot sheer slope into a water filled ditch he would be in trouble.
The golfers know where these dangers are but the public especially children running around Dont.

So for any lawyers out there.
If a child fell in a water course on a golf course opened to the public for exercise would the club be open to any form of legal action from the child’s family , or possibly H&S executive.?

The two incidents happened about 1955, not sure if you could sue the council in those days.

I think you are protesting a wee bit too much.
I am certain that your course, like others, has had many incidents of the public walking on it before CoV19.
We are only talking short term measures during a crisis. Handled properly it may just enhance your course to it's neighbouring families and EVEN act as a form of recruitment at the end of it. ...................Some may even say..............You see those posh stuck up golfers, they are not such a bad lot after all.l

BTW on one of my old courses we had a loop of 6 holes that used to get vandalised on a regular basis on late summer evenings. Mainly due to its close proximity to a housing estate.
I used to encourage dog walkers to use it at that time and guess what, the vandalism dropped off quite dramatically

 

[clubchamp98]

The two incidents happened about 1955, not sure if you could sue the council in those days.

I think you are protesting a wee bit too much.
I am certain that your course, like others, has had many incidents of the public walking on it before CoV19.
We are only talking short term measures during a crisis. Handled properly it may just enhance your course to it's neighbouring families and EVEN act as a form of recruitment at the end of it. ...................Some may even say..............You see those posh stuck up golfers, they are not such a bad lot after all.l

BTW on one of my old courses we had a loop of 6 holes that used to get vandalised on a regular basis on late summer evenings. Mainly due to its close proximity to a housing estate.
I used to encourage dog walkers to use it at that time and guess what, the vandalism dropped off quite dramatically

My club is in a working class area and is by no means posh.
It was started by the main employer of the town for workers to enjoy.
Anybody is welcome here as long as they treat the course as their own.
The people who have damaged the course in the past have been ones playing golf!
It’s on a very steep hil and is not suitable imo of course for young children to play on.
That is my genuine opinion it’s not snobbery.
Taylor’s Park is next door so there is no need to open it to the public.
It might get us a new member ,but anyone is welcome to come and try our starter course free of charge with lessons from the pros.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

The two incidents happened about 1955, not sure if you could sue the council in those days.

I think you are protesting a wee bit too much.
I am certain that your course, like others, has had many incidents of the public walking on it before CoV19.
We are only talking short term measures during a crisis. Handled properly it may just enhance your course to it's neighbouring families and EVEN act as a form of recruitment at the end of it. ...................Some may even say..............You see those posh stuck up golfers, they are not such a bad lot after all.l

BTW on one of my old courses we had a loop of 6 holes that used to get vandalised on a regular basis on late summer evenings. Mainly due to its close proximity to a housing estate.
I used to encourage dog walkers to use it at that time and guess what, the vandalism dropped off quite dramatically

You haven't addressed his main point though about clubs being sued because of injuries sustained on their premises.
It really is an important situation for a club.
Lawyers will sue/claim if asked , and then it will cost the club.
1. To defend, whether they win or lose. Club lawyers cost money.
2 . If they use their public liability insurance- premiums go up.
3. It is possible/ likely knowing insurance companies, that the insurance company will try to bail out of meeting the claim, on the basis that the use of the venue has changed etc. Then the Club pays big time.

Well intentioned ideas have to be objectively looked at to ensure that they are not taken advantage of, something that isn't rare in these compensation ridden times.
Would these considerations not matter to you if you owned or managed the golf club?