A question for you.

[rulefan]

Far be it from me to query anything you say RF.

However:
A temporary putting green for a hole is typically part of the general area when it is not in use, but the Committee may wish to clarify its status or declare it to be a wrong green.

The term here is may but I naturally am open to correction

If the temporary green satisfies the definition of a putting green it is a putting green. If it is not the putting green of the hole being played (ie the one with a flagstick) it is a wrong green.

From 2019 it says:
The general area includes:
• All teeing locations on the course other than the teeing area, and
• All wrong greens.

 

[Colin L]

Any green, temporary or otherwise, other than the one you are playing to will be part of the general area and is a wrong green. Temporary greens might only be cut for putting for use during the winter and the area left at fairway height the rest of the time as is done at my club. During the time when they are not prepared for putting, they are not putting greens.

 

[williamalex1]

All our temp greens are marked GUR we must drop at the NPR.

 

[rulefan]

All our temp greens are marked GUR we must drop at the NPR.

This is often done by clubs because many players do not understand the rule about wrong greens. Often the problem is the reverse. Many players believe you can play off the normal green when a temp is being used if you use a putter. The 2019 Interpretation makes it clear.The normal putting green for a hole where a temporary green is being used, is a wrong green.

 

[2blue]

All our temp greens are marked GUR we must drop at the NPR.

2019... there's no GUR as such

 

[williamalex1]

This is often done by clubs because many players do not understand the rule about wrong greens. Often the problem is the reverse. Many players believe you can play off the normal green when a temp is being used if you use a putter. The 2019 Interpretation makes it clear.The normal putting green for a hole where a temporary green is being used, is a wrong green.

Interesting, especially at our 18th where the temp green is just a few yards in front of the normal green which has bunkers left and right, should Drop Zones be made available ?

 

[williamalex1]

2019... there's no GUR as such

Abnormal course conditions now EH! lol . reminds me of the old granny asking for a stone of tatties, when told it's Kilos you get now , she replied a stone of Kilos then .

 

[Colin L]

2019... there's no GUR as such

I guess it's near enogh the panto season to say "Oh yes there is."

Abnormal Course Conditions (currently called Abnormal Ground Conditions) are defined as being any one of four conditions:

• Animal Hole,
• Ground Under Repair,
• Immovable Obstruction, or
• Temporary Water.

Temporary Water is what is currently called Casual Water.; there is a change to the definition of an Animal Hole; and Immovable Obstructions will be classed as Abnormal Course Conditions.

 

[rulefan]

Interesting, especially at our 18th where the temp green is just a few yards in front of the normal green which has bunkers left and right, should Drop Zones be made available ?

I haven't seen (looked for) any advice on the use of DZs in the new rules but I don't suppose there has been any change. You would only use DZs if it is impossible or impracticable to proceed under the relevant relief rule. It therefore depends on exactly what the positional relationships are between the temp green, normal green and bunkers.

I have seen many courses with the temp on the apron but have never noticed a need for a DZ.

 

[cliveb]

Any green, temporary or otherwise, other than the one you are playing to will be part of the general area and is a wrong green. Temporary greens might only be cut for putting for use during the winter and the area left at fairway height the rest of the time as is done at my club. During the time when they are not prepared for putting, they are not putting greens.

Interesting. What constitutes "prepared for putting"? We have a temp green on the 2nd while some drainage work is being done on the main green but it hasn't been "prepared" as such. It's just a hole on the fairway and a circle painted to define the boundary; it hasn't been mowed any shorter than the fairway. So if you end up on it (quite possible to hook a tee shot from the 11th there), are you on a wrong green?

 

[rulefan]

It has a white line denoting it's purpose together with a clinching hole in the middle (presumably with a flagstick).

 

[duncan mackie]

Ps: as far as i am aware, the lifting & dropping from the temporary green is a red herring - in that it was a correct procedure, and the breach of rules only occurred when a stroke was made at it as a wrong ball. And "correcting the mistake" as I referred to above, is playing the right ball from its original position - ie the position it was in before the mistake was made.

Getting back on track....it isn't a red herring in either 2018 or 2019 rulings 🤗

 

[Colin L]

With that big hint from Duncan, it's time to announce the winner ....which is a bit difficult since there isn't one. It was somewhat ironic to see backwoodsman pick up on the fact that Player Plonker B (me) had lifted and dropped a ball. That is actually a key factor, not a red herring. Here's the story:

Question 1
A played B's ball - a straightforward wrong ball error. 2 penalty strokes and he must go back and play the correct ball [Rule 15-3b]. As his ball was on the temporary putting green, he must take relief. By lifting A's ball and then dropping it in the process of taking relief from the wrong green, B substituted a ball. When he played it, he wasn't playing a wrong ball but a ball which had been wrongly substituted. He incurs a 2 stroke penalty and must hole out with the substituted ball [Rule 15-2].
Question 2
There is no change in the 2019 Rules other than Rule numbers. Wrong ball is 6.3c and substituted ball is 6.3b. (Maybe worth a mention in the by-going that relief from a wrong green will change - you will have to take complete relief, stance included.)
Question 3
In match play under both current and 2019 rules it is, as often is the case, simpler. A loses the hole for playing a wrong ball. The fact that the penalty for wrongly substituting a ball is also loss of hole is irrelevant. Since A played first, the hole was over before B played.

And the moral of the story? Don't be a plonker and assume that the guy first to play with two balls in close proximity will actually play his own ball.

 

[duncan mackie]

You sure about Q 2......?

 

[Colin L]

I'm not seeing any change but will have another look................

A quick check later and I'm still not with you. What are you seeing that I'm not seeing?

 

[duncan mackie]

I'm not seeing any change but will have another look................

A quick check later and I'm still not with you. What are you seeing that I'm not seeing?

Surely the ball that was substituted in the relief situation is no longer a wrongly substituted ball, it is simply being played from a wrong place 14-7 rather than 6.3?

 

[Colin L]

I don't think so. What makes it "no longer" a substituted ball? But I'm gong out shortly and will come back to it later.

 

[backwoodsman]

Don't know how to quote two separate posts in a single reply - but in relation to Duncan's post #32 and Colin's post #33 ...

Am always happy to bow to greater knowledge, but l am not getting the relevance of B having moved A's ball (and therefore the consequences relating to "substitution").

As l see it, B picked up and moved a ball that was nothing to do with him - in the same way as he might pick up any stray ball on the course. He dropped it - again, as one might do with any ball found lying on the course. (Cor blimey, don't want that, it's a Dunlop!!"). So far he's done nothing wrong (?). Because it was on a wrong green, had it been his own ball, so far, he'd still have done nothing wrong -provided the drop was done properly that is. (Ergo, my thought that "wrong green" was a red herring?). He then made the mistake of playing it. He made a stroke at a ball that is not his ball. And is not in the right place. So why is it not a wrong ball or not a wrong place? And therefore why is B not required to play the right ball (or a properly substituted ball) from the right place (ie the place where his own ball was lying when A hit it?)

As i say, happy to bow to greater knowledge, but happier still if you can point me at the rules/decisions that will sway me to your view.

 

[rulefan]

The difference between a wrong ball and a substituted ball is briefly that it is a wrong ball if it is simply played from where it lies. A substituted ball is one that is in the player's hand (because he has picked it up or it was in his pocket or bag say) and he puts it into play by dropping or placing it. He has had every opportunity to check/conform it wasn't his ball in play.

See Rules 15-2 & 15-3
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-15,15-2

 

[backwoodsman]

The difference between a wrong ball and a substituted ball is briefly that it is a wrong ball if it is simply played from where it lies. A substituted ball is one that is in the player's hand (because he has picked it up or it was in his pocket or bag say) and he puts it into play by dropping or placing it. He has had every opportunity to check/conform it wasn't his ball in play.

See Rules 15-2 & 15-3
http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-15,15-2

Ok, ta. The second paragraph of 15-2 (the bit in parentheses) adequately clarifies it. I should pay greater attention