4BBB; must partners be in the same group?

[Blue in Munich]

I turned up this morning looking for a partner for a 4BBB competition as my scheduled partner had put his back out. I'd confirmed with the other pair in our tee time that I would turn up and act as marker if we were only a 3 ball. The following group were in exactly the same position; a 3 ball with 2 competitors and a marker as his proposed partner was now unable to make it. Would it have been possible for the two markers to enter the competition, keep an individual card marked by the pair in the competition and then convert that to a better ball card when the round had finished?

I think I may have the answer but I'd be interested in the experts' take on it. Thanks.

 

[duncan mackie]

I can see no reason why not as its stroke play - it's the committees responsibility to provide a marker you would think they would jump at the solution! Definitely one of those to ask first (even if it's only the assistant pro, shop assistant or starter!)

 

[doublebogey7]

I can see no reason why not as its stroke play - it's the committees responsibility to provide a marker you would think they would jump at the solution! Definitely one of those to ask first (even if it's only the assistant pro, shop assistant or starter!)

Are you sure Duncan?, Rule 23.2b, tells us that scores must be entered on a single scorecard.

 

[upsidedown]

I turned up this morning looking for a partner for a 4BBB competition as my scheduled partner had put his back out. I'd confirmed with the other pair in our tee time that I would turn up and act as marker if we were only a 3 ball. The following group were in exactly the same position; a 3 ball with 2 competitors and a marker as his proposed partner was now unable to make it. Would it have been possible for the two markers to enter the competition, keep an individual card marked by the pair in the competition and then convert that to a better ball card when the round had finished?

I think I may have the answer but I'd be interested in the experts' take on it. Thanks.

If this scenario happens at our place the highest handicapper pairs up with the other two players in his group and effectively has two chances. Don't use it if a Board/serious comp

 

[SGC001]

I turned up this morning looking for a partner for a 4BBB competition as my scheduled partner had put his back out. I'd confirmed with the other pair in our tee time that I would turn up and act as marker if we were only a 3 ball. The following group were in exactly the same position; a 3 ball with 2 competitors and a marker as his proposed partner was now unable to make it. Would it have been possible for the two markers to enter the competition, keep an individual card marked by the pair in the competition and then convert that to a better ball card when the round had finished?

I think I may have the answer but I'd be interested in the experts' take on it. Thanks.

Its not a congu event

We've done it in my last 2 clubs for internal betterballs.

Mark partner required, cards get randomly drawn by a commitee member if theres an odd one out comp fees refunded.

Its a small disadvantage for singles paired up as no 'free' putts.

 

[duncan mackie]

Are you sure Duncan?, Rule 23.2b, tells us that scores must be entered on a single scorecard.

Indeed, and see you are on the ball!

However, I would have no issue with the pair transposing their scores to a single card, signed as appropriate, before being returned ( and would expect it for practical purposes as well as the rules).

And I definitively should have made reference to this in my initial post....sorry.

 

[badgergm]

Surprised if allowed. Playing in separate groups is just different. One problem with 4BBB is additional pressure when your partner is out of the hole - wouldn't get this if playing in different groups.

Or maybe it's OK as more of a disadvantage than advantage - not just 'free putts', but amended hole strategy depending on whether partner has hit fairway, or is OOB or whatever.

 

[rulefan]

Four-ball:
A form of play where sides of two partners compete, with each player playing his or her own ball.

Side:
Two or more partners competing as a single unit in a round in match play or stroke play.
Each set of partners is a side, whether each partner plays his or her own ball (Four-Ball) or the partners play one ball (Foursomes).
A side is not the same as a team. In a team competition, each team consists of players competing as individuals or as sides.

Partner:
A player who competes together with another player as a side, in either match play or stroke play.

 

[rulie]

Four-ball:
A form of play where sides of two partners compete, with each player playing his or her own ball.

Side:
Two or more partners competing as a single unit in a round in match play or stroke play.
Each set of partners is a side, whether each partner plays his or her own ball (Four-Ball) or the partners play one ball (Foursomes).
A side is not the same as a team. In a team competition, each team consists of players competing as individuals or as sides.

Partner:
A player who competes together with another player as a side, in either match play or stroke play.

And your answer to the question is what?

 

[williamalex1]

We have been put out in a 6 ball a couple of times, when a pair didn't turn up for an invitational fun day. It was an absolute nightmare , holding people up , waving umpteen games through, 6 balls on the green, fingers crossed never again

 

[rulefan]

And your answer to the question is what?

If the side has two players present they must play together.

 

[rulie]

If the side has two players present they must play together.

Devil's advocate here. So you're saying that "competes together with another player" means the same as plays together? Not sure of that extension.

 

[rulefan]

partners competing as a single unit

 

[fundy]

yet another example of rules being more important than people enjoying themselves at their hobby. Absolutely no advantage to playing separately, its not the ryder cup, crack on and play as a team whilst marking in separate groups, or you could read too much into the ambiguous wording in the rule book and not allow it

did you win?

 

[rulie]

partners competing as a single unit

That means that they have a single score for the unit, not that they must play together. The unit's score is generated from each of the individual's scores. Still don't see that as meaning they must play together.

 

[badgergm]

yet another example of rules being more important than people enjoying themselves at their hobby. Absolutely no advantage to playing separately, its not the ryder cup, crack on and play as a team whilst marking in separate groups, or you could read too much into the ambiguous wording in the rule book and not allow it

did you win?

As I say above, it is quite different playing in separate groups, and overall a disadvantage I would say. But clearly on some occasions it is an advantage. I normally play with a high handicapper who folds under pressure. If I'm out of a hole then nailed on he will mess it up too. This seems a common scenario - surprised that answer is not well known.

 

[duncan mackie]

As I say above, it is quite different playing in separate groups, and overall a disadvantage I would say. But clearly on some occasions it is an advantage. I normally play with a high handicapper who folds under pressure. If I'm out of a hole then nailed on he will mess it up too. This seems a common scenario - surprised that answer is not well known.

What answer?

You have twice posted that there may be advantages or maybe disadvantages to a split pair, and that individual attributes will contribute to which, when and whatever...

That answer would be generally accepted by everyone ie it's not clear cut as to whether a pair would gain an advantage over the field; if pressed for a vote I would take the view that they were at a disadvantage, but that's only relevant to what happens at my club.

I completely agree with the principle behind Fundy's post and, because of that, would be comfortable to permit them to proceed as set out in the belief that the rules do not clearly prohibit me from doing so (as such if it ever got to the R&A for an absolute ruling if I was wrong I would be wrong - but everyone got to play and the world is still spinning).1

 

[badgergm]

Sorry, haven't been very clear. Answer as in answer to the question "Is it permissible under the rules for partners in a 4BBB comp to play in different groups?"

I'm fine with your answer and agree with the principle of getting on with it. I only raised advantages/disadvantages as presumably lots of people wouldn't be happy with that answer if there was an advantage in not playing together.

I also note that if I understand responses correctly then rulefan disagrees and believes partners must play together.

 

[duncan mackie]

Sorry, haven't been very clear. Answer as in answer to the question "Is it permissible under the rules for partners in a 4BBB comp to play in different groups?"

I'm fine with your answer and agree with the principle of getting on with it. I only raised advantages/disadvantages as presumably lots of people wouldn't be happy with that answer if there was an advantage in not playing together.

I also note that if I understand responses correctly then rulefan disagrees and believes partners must play together.

Understand better now - thanks.

I believe that Rulefan sees a stronger inference in the rules than I do. Rulie seems closer to me (but that's only my interpretation!) Don't think any of us would be surprised if the R&A ruled either way to be honest. Whilst we aren't supposed to be using the old language any more I would summarise my view with the belief that the rule makers didn't contemplate the situation outlined when drawing up the rule....and would almost certainly start any ruling along the lines of the committee should take what steps it can to provide a marker for the pair; before any yes or no to split and combine cards before submission.

 

[Blue in Munich]

yet another example of rules being more important than people enjoying themselves at their hobby. Absolutely no advantage to playing separately, its not the ryder cup, crack on and play as a team whilst marking in separate groups, or you could read too much into the ambiguous wording in the rule book and not allow it

did you win?

No we didn't; as no-one was sure we didn't try to enter although checking our cards afterwards, we would have mustered 41 points between us which is what got second place in the competition.

A few points were raised when we asked about it. The partner bombing it OOB and you not knowing was raised as an advantage, the lack of a "free putt" as a disadvantage and the one that no one (I think) has raised here was different conditions, although how much difference the weather makes 8 minutes apart I'm not sure... I suppose my "partner" in the following group may have benefitted from the amount of pitch marks we repaired ahead of him...