4BBB Match - Incorrect score for hole given.

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Friendly but competitive 4BBB Match this morning.

On one of our par5s…I’m giving all three others a shot. I am down in 5. My partner is 2ft away in 4. Our opponents play out. I ask what they’d scored. Both say they got 7s. So my 5 has won the hole. My partner picks up (one of the opponents might have said his putt didn’t matter…not sure on that so let’s put that aside unless it matters). We say we’ve won the hole and they don’t disagree (again they may have said yes we’d won the hole but I am not sure…so again let’s put that aside unless it matters).

Just before we tee off (with us now having the honour having won the hole, they had the honour on the hole just played), one of the guys tells us that he’d miscounted and actually scored 6 on the previous hole - and they claim a half. My buddy was seriously miffed as he had had a putt for a 5 to win the hole, but of course given the information we’d been provided with he’d picked up.

Thoughts on this anyone? Did we have grounds to maintain that we had won the hole?

I note that I’ve only now spotted a very similar issue posted by @3offTheTee a few days ago, but not sure the rules quoted in responses to that question cover the incorrect information being given as opposed to incorrect shots applied (That being the issue for that query). So if I may leave my question as it stands.

 

[Imurg]

Did they, effectively, concede the putt by walking off the green after they holed out..?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Did they, effectively, concede the putt by walking off the green after they holed out..?

Indeed, I don’t know. I can’t imagine it makes any difference where our opponents were standing when my partner picked his ball up - as it happens they were both off the green walking to their bags. But we were informed of the miscount before we tee’d off on next hole.

 

[doublebogey7]

Rule 3.2d is your friend here. In match play the player must give the correct number of strokes played (including penalties) whenever asked.

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-3

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Rule 3.2d is your friend here. In match play the player must give the correct number of strokes played (including penalties) whenever asked.

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-3

It does indeed. The opponent gave the wrong number of shots and didn’t correct himself BEFORE my partner picked up his ball. The fact that the correction was given before we teed off on next hole is irrelevant.

And just for completeness on this scenario.

I am thinking that the same rule would have applied if my partner had decided to putt in any case and missed. Because if he putted thinking we’d already won the hole given information provided, then that would have affected his playing of the putt…i.e. he might not focus the same as it wouldn’t matter if he missed his two footer. He was playing his next shot with incorrect information provided about his opponents shots taken.

 

[rulefan]

It does indeed. The opponent gave the wrong number of shots and didn’t correct himself BEFORE my partner picked up his ball. The fact that the correction was given before we teed off on next hole is irrelevant.

And just for completeness on this scenario.

I am thinking that the same rule would have applied if my partner had decided to putt in any case and missed. Because if he putted thinking we’d already won the hole given information provided, then that would have affected his playing of the putt…i.e. he might not focus the same as it wouldn’t matter if he missed his two footer. He was playing his next shot with incorrect information provided about his opponents shots taken.

Any action by your partner would be irrelevant. You had already won the hole and it was over.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Any action by your partner would be irrelevant. You had already won the hole and it was over.

So no matter what my partner had done, pick or putt it matters not, he would be doing it with incorrect info provided - and that’s the rule breach. OK good - get that.

But then looking at my situation, I had the 5 before they had both holed out, and they corrected their better ball score to a 6 and a half claimed before we teed off. Relative to my score where is their rule break. Or does the rule break against my partner invalidate their subsequent correction.

Apologies for not quite getting your analysis fully.

 

[rulefan]

So no matter what my partner had done, pick or putt it matters not, he would be doing it with incorrect info provided - and that’s the rule breach. OK good - get that.

But then looking at my situation, I had the 5 before they had both holed out, and they corrected their better ball score to a 6 and a half claimed before we teed off. Relative to my score where is their rule break. Or does the rule break against my partner invalidate their subsequent correction.

Apologies for not quite getting your analysis fully.

I am down in 5. My partner is 2ft away in 4. Our opponents play out. I ask what they’d scored. Both say they got 7s. So my 5 has won the hole.


3.2d
The player gets the general penalty (loss of hole) if he or she gives the opponent the wrong number of strokes taken, unless the player corrects that mistake in time:

• Wrong Number of Strokes Given While Playing Hole. The player must give the right number of strokes taken before the opponent (your partner) makes another stroke or takes a similar action (such as conceding the player’s next stroke or the hole).

The similar action would be your partner picking up his ball.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I am down in 5. My partner is 2ft away in 4. Our opponents play out. I ask what they’d scored. Both say they got 7s. So my 5 has won the hole.


3.2d
The player gets the general penalty (loss of hole) if he or she gives the opponent the wrong number of strokes taken, unless the player corrects that mistake in time:

• Wrong Number of Strokes Given While Playing Hole. The player must give the right number of strokes taken before the opponent (your partner) makes another stroke or takes a similar action (such as conceding the player’s next stroke or the hole).

The similar action would be your partner picking up his ball.

I shall let my partner know. He was well p’d off as the same guy had earlier done the same thing, giving us one score then changing his mind after we’d finished the hole. That time though we’d both holed out without missing a putt after asking the question. We walked off thinking we’d halved the hole then he piped up with his correction to his score which meant we’d lost the hole.

 

[chrisd]

I shall let my partner know. He was well p’d off as the same guy had earlier done the same thing, giving us one score then changing his mind after we’d finished the hole. That time though we’d both holed out without missing a putt after asking the question. We walked off thinking we’d halved the hole then he piped up with his correction to his score which meant we’d lost the hole.

Even taking in to account the player giving the wrong score incurs 'loss of hole?

 

[rulie]

I shall let my partner know. He was well p’d off as the same guy had earlier done the same thing, giving us one score then changing his mind after we’d finished the hole. That time though we’d both holed out without missing a putt after asking the question. We walked off thinking we’d halved the hole then he piped up with his correction to his score which meant we’d lost the hole.

As chrisd has said, the player who gave you the wrong number of strokes he had taken and failed to correct that before you or your partner made your next stroke is no longer in the hole; he has incurred the general penalty (loss of hole). It's clearly in the Rule posted by rulefan.
It does pay to know the Rules of the game being played!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As chrisd has said, the player who gave you the wrong number of strokes he had taken and failed to correct that before you or your partner made your next stroke is no longer in the hole; he has incurred the general penalty (loss of hole). It's clearly in the Rule posted by rulefan.
It does pay to know the Rules of the game being played!

ok..that’s all clear now. Thankyou.

I was unsure whether the penalty is applied to the individual who transgressed, or the pair. I now take that the ‘loss of hole penalty’ only applies to the player transgressing and not the pair - so if the other player had a score on the hole sufficient for a half then that still stands.

Weirdly I don’t recall the issue ever arising for me previously - though it must have, but I guess a long time ago - then it happens twice in the same match.

 

[salfordlad]

I shall let my partner know. He was well p’d off as the same guy had earlier done the same thing, giving us one score then changing his mind after we’d finished the hole. That time though we’d both holed out without missing a putt after asking the question. We walked off thinking we’d halved the hole then he piped up with his correction to his score which meant we’d lost the hole.

This person has form - better to keep a careful count of that person's score yourself.